My Day at Dismal River

[Tim Kratz]

Matt:  I've really enjoyed reading your comments regarding the course.  I'm impressed with the detailed description you provided for each hole.  I do think 13 actually will be a great hole after the changes are made, and I've also discovered that it gets quite a bit easier after you play it a few times.    I have a few thoughts regarding a couple of questions that have been raised.    First, Dismal River strongly encourages walking, and there is not any sort of policy requiring players to take carts.  Obviously, you do need to take a cart from the clubhouse to the first tee.  After that, it's up to you.   I have walked the course several times, including the Grand Opening, when I caddied for Jack and carried his impressively heavy tour bag; even then, it was walkable, though it did provide a nice workout.  Second, no architect has been picked at this time for the second course.    

[Jim Nugent]

Matt, I'm hoping one day you will give us your top 25 or top 50 list.  

Same with Cary.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

I don't doubt that the work you and Jack did at Sebonack has clearly played some sort of role with what has been done at Dismal River.

Jack himself even explained in the Q & A press materials given out at the Sebonack opening that having such seaside looking bunkers have clearly been added to what he does from a design perspective. I don't have the exact quote but will be happy to include when I find it again.

I salute Jack and his team because it's so much easier to stick one's head in the mud and continue with the same design program course after course after course.

Dismal River will likely not be favored by the narrow-minded purist who sees the name Jack Nicklaus designed golf courses as being an affront to such type of layouts.

I credit Jack and his talented team for being able to go forward in a very competitive arena -- Sand Hills being just down the street -- and coming forward with one of his finest courses I have personally played. My mind was forced to really think hard on all the shots encountered. However, Jack went beyond the "how it plays" focus and also included the "how it looks" elements you see with so many holes at Dismal River, to wit, the 10th hole as just one clear example.

I commend you Tom for being able to expand the boundaries of what Jack is now implementing because the "look" is no less critical in tying all the elements together in on egrand package. At the same time I see the results of the Sebonack collaboration as one that will clearly resonate with the upcoming efforts the two of you will create.

Jim N:

Be happy to post on that -- but I try to hold off on such things until the end of the year because of the different course I play.

Tim K:

I understand that walking is permitted but in real terms most people will ride. I mean c'mon -- how far is the distance to the first tee now. You also have holes that are spread across a very large canvass. Walking may be permitted -- but for the sense of speed of play the role of carts will still be necessary for the great majority of people playing there.

One last thing -- thanks for the corrected info on the second course. I was mistaken in thinking that Jack was already the guy who would do it. Frankly, it makes better sense if someone else does it from a branding perspective / re: ditto what was done by Mike Keiser at Bandon Dunes.

John Kirk:

I'll be happy to compare -- first things first though -- a true analysis on the merits of one course before leaping ahead to pushing them together and seeing what emerges. No apology necessary.

[Jerry Kluger]

Our caddie at DR told us that the first hole in one at the course was not on a par 3, rather it was the short uphill par 4, I don't have my yardage book handy but I thought it was 6 or 8, and it was done by one of the caddies from the member tees.

I too would commend Jack for what he has done at DR.  It clearly is not an attempt in any sense to copy Sand Hills.  The greens have tremendous movement and the green surrounds pose interesting and challenging recoveries from deep bunkers as well as large chipping areas.  To me I would describe it as far more complex than Sand Hills, Ballyneal or Wild Horse.  You feel as if you are going up, down and over hills much more than the other courses.  You sense that you are playing from more elevated tees and playing to more elevated greens which to me is simply a different approach to what the land presents.  I think that there were comments about Stone Eagle that the holes tended to go up and down the mountain side and very few went across - this is simply an approach to what the land offers and not that one way is the only way to route the course.

DR should be recognized as really special and I am speculating that different magazines will be rating these new gems in different orders.    

[Tom_Doak]

Jerry:  One of the reasons Jack was able to do something really different from Sand Hills is because he never went to look at it -- something he has been roundly criticized for here.  He is comfortable taking his own approach to a problem instead of looking around at what others have done.

As for going up and down the mountain at Stone Eagle, if we wanted to preserve any of the natural vegetation, there was really no other choice.

[Jim Nugent]

Since I've heard on other threads that Jack usually doesn't route courses (or never does), did one of his associates route Dismal River?  And if so, did the associate(s) see Sand Hills?

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom:

I really liked Stone Eagle and the up and down routing had not occurred to me until it was brought up on a thread here on GCA.  Did you get any sense from Jack that he likes elevated tees and elevated greens when you were working with him at Sebonack?  Having seen some of the holes at Sebonack I did get the feeling at Dismal River that Jack put far more movement in the greens than he usually does and he worked well with the natural bunkers that existed at the property.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

I alluded to a comment Jack Nicklaus made about his learning efforts with you at Sebonack. I now quote it from the press materials handed out at the grand opening event last week.

From page #4 of the Q & A handout on comments from Jack Nicklaus ...

"What is a favorite feature of the course (Sebonack) that your co-designer suggested?"

As I said before, Tom's team did a nice job with the routing, and he had a great influence on some of the look. I had seldom done the seaside-look bunkering prior to this. Since Sebonack (I can conclude Dismal River is a part of this) I've probably done about 10 golf courses this way, because I enjoyed doing it and it was something I had rarely done."

In my mind, Jack clearly was influenced by the "look" generated from Sebonack and I can point to several clear instances where such a "look" is an integral part of what you find at Dismal River -- but also still including the tactical dimemsion that makes Dismal River leap to the front of the page in terms of overall challenge and complexity.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom Doak raised the interesting point on the Ballyneal thread about moving ahead with the Pac Dunes design as a counterpoint to what the original Bandon Dunes course offers. Clearly, by making Pac different it elevated the overall profile of both courses and ultimately the facility as a whole.

Be very interesting to see if the folks running Dismal River opt for a different architect for the proposed second layout and if such a layout will be a good bit different than what the Nicklaus layout offers now from a challenge and artistic level of design.