[TEPaul]

MikeY:

You make a pretty good basic point there---which is---should a golf architect's general popularity amongst the golfing public be considered a determining factor in the greatness of that architect's work? And if not, why not? I guess some could say, and some on this website both do say and imply that perhaps 99% of all golfers are idiots when it comes to golf course architecture. In some sense at least, this smacks of perhaps 1% proclaiming that 99% of golfers don't even know what they like and enjoy. Is saying something like that realistic? Is it arrogant? Is it elitist? Is it even another form of extreme proselytism?  

[Tom_Doak]

I absolutely agree with what Mike Young said, too.  The last half of our design fee is possible only because of the comparison to what Jack charges.  There is no doubt his clients believe he is worth it, and that raises up all of the rest of us.

[TEPaul]

TomD:

Hey, that's cool---I have no problem with that but aren't you the same guy who says that golf and architecture has gotten way too expensive? Last I heard high-end design fees contribute to the price of golf. But, again, I have no problem with Jack ratcheting up the food chain for the rest of you---I'm just trying to make sure you stay consistent in the things you say on here.  

[Tom_Doak]

TEP:  I just got tired of clients telling me my fees were too low, after we were done.  

And I started looking at the projects I've been doing more carefully:

Sebonack is about a $100 million project which succeeds or fails based on the golf course Jack and I produced.  The price of a single membership has RISEN considerably from the original $550,000!

Rock Creek will cost more than $100 million to develop, including the real estate.

They're selling $500,000 lots at Tumble Creek like gangbusters.

Even at Ballyneal, where most everything has one less zero on it, the only way they make any money at all is because the golf course we built is attractive enough to get people out there.

You tell me what that's worth.  In every one of those cases, I know the fee I did charge was too low.

[Mike_Sweeney]

TomD:

Hey, that's cool---I have no problem with that but aren't you the same guy who says that golf and architecture has gotten way too expensive? Last I heard high-end design fees contribute to the price of golf. But, again, I have no problem with Jack ratcheting up the food chain for the rest of you---I'm just trying to make sure you stay consistent in the things you say on here.  

Tom Paul,

If GCA is the land of double standards, Tom Doak is our King.   That said, I am now going to drive by all those nice public courses on The Cape today and go play a nice empty private one by a Dead Guy who maybe visited once or twice, collected a big fee (in 1920 terms), and probably waved his hands a bunch !!

[TEPaul]

"TEP:  I just got tired of clients telling me my fees were too low, after we were done."

TomD:

You got tired of CLIENTS telling you your fees were too low???

Well, isn't that a super pretty kettle of fish since clients are the ones paying you?

I call that mentality (some of your clients) the Arab mentality (that was born out of the incredible riches some Arabs made out of the oil embargo).

It evidenced itself particularly in the mind of one high end real estate broker in England who said if some huge estate cost 20 million pounds some of his Arab clients wanted to pay 30 million pounds for it apparently just to say they did.  

I think we all know that little Tommy Doak has now arrived squarely in the middle of the big-time but how ironic is it that his clients are now insisting that they pretty much have to pay him MORE than he's inclined to charge? Not only did they insist he get paid more but apparently they even had to wait until he GOT TIRED of being asked to take more BEFORE they could manage to get him to TAKE MORE. Amazing!

Congratulations, TomD!  

If I were you, and obviously I'm not, and it's just me, but I would go back to some of your former clients and tell them they ripped you off and that they owe you now big-time and that they should pay you at least double what you charged them back then. Get yourself a good NYC lawyer and claim coming up you were subjected to some weird form of temporary UnAmerican insanity for not charging what you were worth.  

[TEPaul]

MikeS:

You're damned right this is a double standard, but hey, it's obviously a uniquely American one, and frankly I love it because it's just hilarious and that's us. Not just that but this kind of thing is in no way a modern American double standard in golf---it's been going on practically from the beginning of golf architecture in America---on the professional side, and even in some cases on the old amateur architect side (who in some instances could be both client and architect).

The double standard can get even more ironic and this $10,000 fee that some claim Crump paid Colt for basically a week of work is probably the most egregious. A $10,000 fee would've been about the biggest ever heard of at that time for probably a year or more of work.

Not just that but we can hardly escape some of the publicity and articles from the teens and 1920 where clubs bragged about how much money was spent on the course, like the most ever that Macdonald bragged about with Yale and Lido and other remarks such as "no expense spared". And with Macdonald this was from a guy who apparently said he never would take money for what he did in architecture.

Many ironies and many double standards. But that's America and I love it.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Sebonack is about a $100 million project which succeeds or fails based on the golf course Jack and I produced.  The price of a single membership has RISEN considerably from the original $550,000!

Rock Creek will cost more than $100 million to develop, including the real estate.

They're selling $500,000 lots at Tumble Creek like gangbusters.

Even at Ballyneal, where most everything has one less zero on it, the only way they make any money at all is because the golf course we built is attractive enough to get people out there.

You tell me what that's worth.  In every one of those cases, I know the fee I did charge was too low.

Tom,

Talk is cheap. Call up the owners, send back the cash money and take your design fee in equity @ 150% of what you charged. Call me in ten years and tell me how much your services are worth.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

I am not saying I want to own part of those courses, no sirree.  A lot of designers in years past have gotten themselves in deep financial trouble over owning a golf course / development -- even Jack himself at one point.

But, I am a much sharper negotiator the past couple of years than I was before.

[Mike_Young]

Tom,

Talk is cheap. Call up the owners, send back the cash money and take your design fee in equity @ 150% of what you charged. Call me in ten years and tell me how much your services are worth.

Mike,
If they will et you do that with lots on the course...ok....course ownership....nope....

[Mike_Young]

MikeY:

You make a pretty good basic point there---which is---should a golf architect's general popularity amongst the golfing public be considered a determining factor in the greatness of that architect's work? And if not, why not? I guess some could say, and some on this website both do say and imply that perhaps 99% of all golfers are idiots when it comes to golf course architecture. In some sense at least, this smacks of perhaps 1% proclaiming that 99% of golfers don't even know what they like and enjoy. Is saying something like that realistic? Is it arrogant? Is it elitist? Is it even another form of extreme proselytism?  

tom,
In my mind the question was"what does Jack do?"  To answer your question above..yes...it is realistic, arrogant, elitist and that other word,proselytism, which we don't use in the south.....
Would Sand Hills have been built if Jack Nicklaus and a couple of others had not brought golf design into the light it is today?
Would maintenance and maintenance equipment be where it is today if JN and his agents had not convinced RE developers of the value in Brand indentity of the top professional golfer(s)??
The last golf boom was not as much a golf boom as it was a RE boom enhanced by the increased lot value of a "signature" golf course....
It will be interesting to see how the work of the 90's is viewed with the work of the old dead guys in 100 years when all are old dead guys....
Think about JN, Greg Norman and a few others...did they make more money on tour and all of their other endorsements as they have golf course designs....nope...and its because of "value added" to the RE in these projects....  gosh 30 projects at an average fee of over 1.2 mill and you have 36 mill plus the client pays most expenses....I think the "99% idiot factor" you mention seems to be willing to pay for this....more power to him....

[Mike_Young]

TomD:

Hey, that's cool---I have no problem with that but aren't you the same guy who says that golf and architecture has gotten way too expensive? Last I heard high-end design fees contribute to the price of golf. But, again, I have no problem with Jack ratcheting up the food chain for the rest of you---I'm just trying to make sure you stay consistent in the things you say on here.  

I would wager most RE agents on most projects will make more in the year the golf architect is there than the golf architect.

[Daryl David]

They're selling $500,000 lots at Tumble Creek like gangbusters.

Tom,
I was just at Tumble Creek last week and they only have a handful of lots priced below $650K.  Most are selling in the $750K to $1,000K range.  The golf course is definitely a hit and really helping the real estate side of things.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's what a JN Signature(2M fee) course, currently under construction near Naples, FL, looks like:

www.oldcorkscrew.com

Note the photo ops and press coverage.

[Joel_Stewart]

Probably the simple answer to what Jack does (like any CEO) is manage people.  If we are talking about his design business, many of those people are clients.  

I have a friend who is in show-business (comedian) and always tells me that its 20% show and 80% business.

[Greg Tallman]

Tiger's initial foray into the deign game(Dubai) makes Jack's 2.5 million fee look like a real bargain...

$20 million - at least they got a 3-year exclusivity on his design services.

[Jim Nugent]

Greg -- any information or links you can supply about Tiger's Dubai work?

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