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Ryan Farrow

Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« on: August 28, 2006, 02:42:33 AM »
I picked up "The Course Beautiful" at ASU's library a few days ago (about the only thing the school is good for) and I stumbled upon something that’s worth discussing. The book is nothing more than a bunch of articles thrown together and categorized in some strange fashion but none the less, there are some good excerpts.

The Cart Before the Horse talks about a hole Tillie was thinking about designing. It is basically an approach shot off the tee to a small fairway followed by a drive to the green. He talks about how strange it seems and how it was unlikely that any course or greens committee would approve. The lake in the picture below could also be substituted for any waste area, so don’t get hung up on that.




What do you guys think of this concept? Did he ever get around to completing one or has any other architect?

My sketch of whats in the book:


The article ends with this quote:

"Indeed, I should like to have the criticisms and suggestions of every man who reads these lines."


Give em’ Hell!

ForkaB

Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2006, 02:47:48 AM »
Ryan

In modern parlance this would be the "Moe Norman" hole.

It could be interesting if (as seems to be indicated in the diagram) there was a risky option of a long carry to wedge distnace, and the green was open enough to allow a well-hit  and straight off the deck driver to reach the green.

Most punters would hate it, however, since there was only one Moe Norman.......... :'(

Ryan Farrow

Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2006, 02:53:43 AM »
From what I read in the article carrying the hazard would not be a reasonable option. Lets say for the sake of arguement no mortal man could drive a ball over the hazard.  ;D

ForkaB

Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2006, 03:15:21 AM »
Who's arguing? ;)

OK, if there is no risky option, then the landing area for the "tee" shot has to be subtly complex.  Some limited "position A" which will give you a level lie for your 2nd and then graded and increased difficulty for missing positon A.

TEPaul

Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2006, 06:47:56 AM »
Ryan:

You have to understand that obviously Tillie had a most active mind (seriously) and he came up with all kinds of things---and not just relating to golf course architecture. He was a writer with a most interesting style, he was a caricaturist, a writer of ditties and other funny little stuff and in architecture he came up with all kinds of things----probably a bit like throwing pieces of spaghetti at a wall to see what would stick.

The Cart Before the Horse concept was probably just one of the latter.

I'm pretty sure the Cart Before the Horse concept was never actually done by Tillinghast but it was basically done once by William Flynn---the 2nd hole at the ultra difficult C nine at Huntingdon Valley CC.

That nine was obsoleted in the 1930s and restored sixty years later by Ron Prichard in the 1990s.

That hole was probably highly controversial when it was built and it still is.

I thought that perrhaps originally it had that option of which Rich Goodale speaks but looking at it carefully, I doubt it ever did.

A hole like that (HVGC's C nine #2) falls into the category of what we sometimes call a "shot testing" hole which was a somewhat popular type of design ramification back then. In other words the golfer was required to hit a certain set of shots by design and if he couldn't do it or didn't do it he pretty much got screwed or had to willing give up a shot and try to reach a green in three instead of two. That was basically the optional risk/reward concept of a "shot testing" hole like Tillie's Cart before the Horse design.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 06:52:37 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2006, 07:03:34 AM »
Ross was interested in a similar concept. From 1910 interview on British architecture:
When he lays out the hole, the constructor casts his eyes over the country and then says to the player: 'There the golf hole, play it any way you please!' As an example, take a hole at North Berwick, where the majority of good golfers play an iron shot first, then a full shot with a wood and then the approach to the green. An American golfer might say that that was all wrong, as the course should call for a full shot first, but upon examination there is no reason why such a theory should prevail, for the British one surely has the real spirit of golf in it when it says that the way to reach this hole is by using the clubs and by taking the route which will get the player to the green in his own way, which should be better for him than anybody else's way.

TEPaul

Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2006, 07:51:25 AM »
Tom MacWood:

What Ross said in that 1910 British magazine interview seems similar to Tillie's "Cart Before the Horse" hole concept but in a fundamental way it really isn't.

In my opinion, what Ross said and what he fundamentally meant to say is basically the essence of all really great golf courses and architecture is that the golf architect has created a situation where any golfer feels he is capable of finding his own best way to his final destination--the hole---eg he feels he can find his own strategies and routes rather than absolutely having to do something or one set of things that has been laid down by the golf course architect that he MUST do. The latter many of us today call architectural shot or design dictation---eg there is one right way to go and the rest is wrong or penalty inheriting.

Interestingly that old fashioned design concept that some of the best golf architects (like Flynn on some courses or Geo Crump) got into that we call "shot-testing" architecture was a severe form of architectural or design strategy dictation. It's only wrinkle, or perhaps saving grace, is that it was understood back then what the risk/reward equation was. And that was to accept the one dimensional super severe design risk or just refuse to accept it and willingly expect to give up a shot and get to the green in one more stroke, with the only expectation being perhaps you could pitch and one putt thereby making up that expected additonal shot for the hole. (There was another nuance to that old fashioned risk/reward equation that was sometimes referred to as "The Tortoise and Hare" analogy ;) ).

Although Tillie's "Cart Before the Horse" hole concept is interestingly an upside down form of total shot dictation it is shot or design dictation nevertheless as basiclly most all players are forced to do the very same thing on that type of hole.

In other words, their strategies really aren't their own, they are a set of one dimensional shot requirements laid down by the architect, again, even if in a form basically upside down compared to the way most golf holes are designed.

Again, what Ross was saying and what he clearly meant, in my opinion, is the very essence of all truly good STRATEGIC golf and architecture.

An old Scottish song reminds me of that fundamental strategic essence that any golfer can feel is his own. That song goes;

"Ye take the high road and I'll take the low road and I'll be in Scotland before Ye."  ;)

That fundamental "player's own" strategic feeling is also the essence of one of strategic architecture's greatest analogies---eg "The Tortoise and the Hare".

That meant that if you played cautiously and willingly expected to give up a stroke on the hole your opponent (the Hare) may play recklessly and give you back that dropped shot or more.

These analogies and design concepts were definitely from the days when a match play mentality reigned in golf and architecture far more than it does now.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 08:20:48 AM by TEPaul »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2006, 10:34:38 AM »
Tom MacWood, do you suppose Tilly was talking about #9 at North Berwick West?  That par 5 has a vexing center bunker with a wall and OB left and deep hay right (where I lost one last time around).  I can now see where a long iron off the tee, fairway wood second to the now wide fairway, and pitch third would be the best way to play this hole.  

Way to go, Tillie!  ;D

Ryan Farrow

Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2006, 12:00:59 PM »
Thanks for the post Tom, I'd like to hear what Kyle has to say about that hole at HVGC.

T_MacWood

Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2006, 12:17:52 PM »
Bill
Actually that hole at NB was Ross's example. I'm not sure which hole at North Berwick he was talking about but your description sounds like the right one.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 12:28:27 PM by Tom MacWood »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2006, 12:24:41 PM »
It's virtually criticized by all as unfair, backwards, ridiculous, too hard, stupid, unplayable and reason enough to not even play that particular nine.

It also provides one of the greatest approach shots I have ever seen, and there is no reason every ability player cannot experience the very same shot.

What percentage of people can actually get in a position off the tee to hit #13 at Augusta in 2?

Same question about #17 at St. Andrews. And #13 at Pine Valley. #2 on the C-nine at HVCC is unique and understandably not unanimously accepted, but I like it pretty well.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2006, 08:29:53 AM by JES II »

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2006, 12:34:46 PM »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2006, 07:56:01 PM »
Bill
Actually that hole at NB was Ross's example. I'm not sure which hole at North Berwick he was talking about but your description sounds like the right one.

Whichever, now I have a successful strategy next time I play the hole!

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2006, 08:13:21 PM »
Ryan,
I wouldn't call this Tillie's best hole.  It might be interesting and unique for those playing it once in a while but for those playing it day in and day out as their home course, it might get old fast.  Same would go for Flynn's #2 hole on the C nine.  It is far from my favorite.  Does this design force a certain shot, I guess it does but I'm not sure how exciting it is?  I guess I'd like to see an option or the temptation for golfers to have to contemplate alternative lines of play.  This kind of hole is hell for weaker golfers or kids and seniors and a bit boring for better players.  They end up in their old divots every day off the tee as there are no angles or preferred positions of play.
Just my opinion,
Mark  
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 08:15:03 PM by Mark_Fine »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2006, 08:28:41 PM »
Tiger Woods decided that a lot of the holes at Hoylake were better approached in "cart before the horse" style (by himself, anyway), and that was great to watch.

To me that is more interesting than the diagram shown.  Let the player bomb away with driver into a landing area fraught with difficulty (but not the certainty of water), or let him lay back and attack the green with a longer iron.  

I don't think the hole should be as Rich suggests, where the long hitter can carry everything by force.  But the other extreme is not right either -- if you really FORCE everyone to lay up in roughly the same spot, you are just giving all the advantage to the better man on the approach.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2006, 08:56:50 PM »
I think TomD has it. As has been pointed out here many times, options are a key to enjoyment - 'forcing' the player to lay up to a spot tends to annoy.

On the other hand, I do wonder if there is a very particular method of making this hole work well... both the tee shot and the approach must be thrilling to play... perhaps the only way is to make the way very clearly 'desirable' rather than forced. Maybe if the landing area were surrounded by extremely undesirable areas... like scrub and sand or marsh - and the second shot took some of the pressure off by offering more forgiveness, but with a thrilling aspect like a severe drop in elevation...

Kyle Harris

Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2006, 09:04:32 PM »
Ryan,

Sorry for the delay, just caught this thread now.



There's the hole from a Zeus-quivering tee shot. The tee is hard left and a bit behind me in the photo. I took that picture from approx. 200 yards.

From the tee, the left side is obscured by a line of trees that are currently off property. When the hole closed, the township built a pumping station just off the property line that now has an environmental and easement requirement.

In an ideal world, a bunch of those trees would be cut back, and the fairway in the picture would be brought closer to the creek, allowing the creek to function more as a center-line hazard than a lateral hazard. There are some players (I believe Mr. Sullivan included) who have attempted to tee one high and let it fly over the trees to cut the corner in tournament play, with moderate amounts of success.

I love the hole, and serves as a good knockout punch to the first hole's jab on the C-nine.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2006, 09:20:18 PM »
Kyle,
The second hole sure is a knock out punch and the first hole is definitely a jab  ;D

Kyle Harris

Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2006, 09:25:27 PM »
Kyle,
The second hole sure is a knock out punch and the first hole is definitely a jab  ;D

Especially when the easiest hole on the nine follows at the third...

You know, your standard, run-of-the-mill 610 yard Par 5 with a wild green.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2006, 09:27:51 PM »
On closer inspection, Tillie's drawing is a lot like the 18th at High Pointe, except that the High Pointe hole is a short par 5 where only a perfect tee shot is within range of the green in two for long hitters.

And, that hole is nearly unanimously hated by everyone that's played it.  So I've done Tillie's experiment, and it is not beloved.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2006, 09:37:13 PM »
Kyle,
I'm a decent golfer (2 or 3 handicap) and I have to say that the C nine was way too much for me.  I'm not sure who plays it (and enjoys it) but they must be a much better golfer then I am.  I felt bloodied and beaten and couldn't wait to get back over to the other two nines (which I really enjoy).  I know it was supposedly built as a "tournament" nine but yikes  ???

Don't want to derail this thread so let's get back to Tillie's hole.  #2 would basically qualify as a similar one and as I said, I don't really care for it.  Maybe if the trees came down and you could add some risk/reward options and it would become much more interesting.  

Ryan Farrow

Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2006, 10:36:28 PM »
I agree with much of what has been said. I still feel there is a way to make the hole work. What I would like to propose is a redan style green and a shifting of the fairway. The point of this is to give the players options. Option 1 is represented as the solid line of play. Here the player could drive the ball into a long iron say a 3-4 iron. The other option is to play the hole much shorter and give that player a better angle into the green. Although this may require a 3 wood or a driver off the deck.




Can this work and is it more reasonable than Tillie’s example?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2006, 10:50:04 PM »
I must say I am enjoying this thread. I like Ryan's proposal, and I learned that we have a hole at my home course that could be called a cart before the horse hole. For me, if I work the ball in the proper direction, I very occasionally might hit 4 iron, 5 iron. However, just playing it straight up the middle is 4 iron, 5 wood. It is my favorite hole on the front nine. However, all the rest of my favorite holes are on the back nine.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kyle Harris

Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2006, 11:44:18 PM »
Ryan,

Funny you should design a hole like that. The 11th hole at Lederach by Kelly Blake Moran has a very similar premise.

Here's the tee shot:



The hole is out to the left and the best line off the tee is right short of the bunker with a 2-iron or 5-wood. This leaves a mid to short iron into the narrow green.

One can try to cut the corner and get a flip wedge in, but it's not really worth it...

It's been villified by many here, but as I told Kelly the other day: "I wonder why, it's an easy hole if you don't overthink it, just knock 3-wood out past the bunker and then hit your 7 iron to the middle of the green... most of the people complaining are good enough to do that almost on command so what's the problem?"

I tend to like holes like this, especially as a short to mid range hitter.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillie's Cart Before the Horse Hole
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2006, 08:59:08 AM »
The thing about the whole idea of "cart before horse" is that it takes players outside their box. Better players typically do not like that, and not so great players see it as unnecessary. I have yet to hear a valid criticism (architecturally) of the hole on its own merits.