Thrown for a loop

[Patrick_Mucci]

Did the "golden age" architects get it right when they designed their courses with two loops, one clockwise and one counter-clockwise ?

Doesn't this configuration guarantee that the influence of the wind will vary throughout the round, creating additional interest and challenge ?

Is the double loop the ideal routing configuration ?

[John Shimp]

I think this routing can make the wind less variable hole to hole depending on how tight the loops are.  A north carolina mountain course I am familiar with (Grandfather Golf and Country Club) has the exact routing you describe but with the holes on each loop parallel to one another.  This results in a stretch of 4 holes with one wind direction, 10 consecutive holes with another, and 4 holes with the initial direction.  The 10 holes if into the wind can create quite a challenge similar to the in wind nine at TOC.  The Ocean Course at kiawah is an S  like loop layout but exhibits a similar prevailing wind issue where 4 holes play with one wind, 9 with another, and 5 with the original wind.

If the loops gradually turn and are less tight I think the routing makes for great wind variability.  I can't think of a great example though.

[JESII]

Huntingdon Valley, just outside of Philadelphia, is a pretty good example of what you are looking for John. I think Wayne Morrison probably has a good aerial photo or drawing of the routing. Due to the valley when the wind is from the east or west it is fairly predictable as you play through the course. The angle may constantly change a bit, but the origin is discernable. When it comes from the north or south it kind of pours in over the hills that create the valley and it swirls in all sorts of direction. Makes the course significantly tougher.

[Bill_McBride]

Sonoma Golf Club in the California wine country north of San Francisco was just featured on this website and has this routing to a tee.  The first nine goes clockwise around the perimeter (beware the snap hook!) and the back nine is inside the front nine loop in a counterclockwise direction.

Sean Tully posted an aerial which shouldn't be too far back that very clearly illustrates this.  The 2nd and 3rd holes are at the bottom going right to left, and the 6th and 8th holes are at the top, left to right.

There are never more than two holes in a row in the same direction and yes, this makes the course very interesting and diverse if the wind is up.

I haven't played Muirfield but understand this is the same routing plan.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Redanman,

None of the issues you raised address the three questions posed in the opening post.

And, Friar's Head is a double loop.

The front nine is counter-clockwise and the back nine is clockwise.   How could you miss that ?

As to TOC, NGLA and others, the narrowness of the land doesn't permit anything other than a parallel out and in configuration.

Perhaps you can develop an interesting thread on that subject

[JESII]

Haven't been to Lehigh redanman, and I'm not sure what you mean by "moibus strip". Regardless, I think your sentence immediately before addressing me says it all.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The ideal routing situation is that routing which most effectively uses the land.

How pithy.

And how do you determine which routing that would be ?

Are the routings at Friar's Head and Pacific Dunes the absolute ideal routings ?

How would YOU determine that ?

[JESII]

If we are answering each question directly, here goes...

Did the "golden age" architects get it right when they designed their courses with two loops, one clockwise and one counter-clockwise ?
IN MANY INSTANCES, YES. BUT I WOULD NOT SAY ABSOLUTELY ALWAYS. TWO LOOPS AS YOU DESCRIBE DOES A NICE JOB OF GIVING SPACE FROM HOLE TO HOLE WITHOUT UNDUE EFFORT. IT ALSO PLAYES INTO THE "WALK IN THE PARK" THEORY. BOTH GOOD THINGS.

Doesn't this configuration guarantee that the influence of the wind will vary throughout the round, creating additional interest and challenge ?
I DON'T THINK IT CAN GUARANTEE VARIETY OF WIND BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT GUARANTEED THE HOLES VARY IN DIRECTION. EVEN AN OUT AND BACK NINE HOLE LOOP COULD VERY WELL BE FOUR HOLES STRAIGHT OUT AND FIVE STRAIGHT BACK.

Is the double loop the ideal routing configuration ?
I'LL AGREE WITH REDANMAN'S STATEMENT ABOUT IDEAL CONFIGURATION. I THINK IT'S THE HOLES THAT MATTER AT THE END OF THE DAY.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

Then you and Redanman apparently disagree with Donald Ross on the subject.

[Michael Moore]

Two clockwise loops or two counterclockwise loops provide a mathematically equally diversity of playing directions as one loop in each direction, so let's not forget those routings.

[George Pazin]

To me, this is one of those things that sounds good in theory, but does it really honestly matter in practice?

When the wind is anything more than a mere zephyr, does anyone find it that easy to judge that consecutive holes with the same wind direction become too easy, too predictable?

My own (albeit limited) experience with the wind is that it rarely blows at a constant speed. If there is wind, the gusting nature of it is much more than enough to compensate for any perceived repetitiveness.

Jim S -

A mobius strip is that thing you made many many years ago in grade school when you took a strip of paper, twisted it, and then taped the ends together. The odd feature of it is that it seems to only have one continuous side.

[Phil McDade]

Pretty electic mix, based on these lists (doesn't factor in clock-wise/counter-cw routing):

Loop:

ANGC
Shinnecock
Oakmont
WF West
Seminole
Southern Hills
Oakland Hills
Five Farms
Oak Hill East
Quaker Ridge
Canterbury
Scioto
Colonial
Interlachen
Cherry Hills
Riveria
Pasa
Prairie Dunes (sort of; don't know that Press had much choice of routing w/ new nine....)

Non-looped:

Cypress Point
Baltusrol Lower
TCC (Championship routing
NGLA
Olympic
Pinehurst #2
Merion East
Pine Valley
Pebble Beach
Cascades
Chicago
Medinah #3 (had to throw in...)

Admittedly, as Pat says, some sites may only be suitable for an out-and-back, narrow routing (Pebble among them?). But the above lists don't seem to indicate that golden-age architects specifically routed courses in a looped or non-looped fashion, to take into account wind variation. Just based on maps and other visuals I've seen of these courses, one could have certainly designed many of the looped courses in a non-loop routing, and the non-looped ones in a loop. Whether they'd be as good, or not, or better, is another matter.

One other (perhaps minor) point -- the nine-hole, two-loop nature of a course's routing is a pretty arbitrary thing, if what you're leaving from and returning to is the clubhouse. It would seem difficult, for instance, to do two loops at Merion East, given that 11 holes are on one side of the road opposite from the clubhouse. But then you could move the clubhouse to somewhere around the 10th green, 1st green and 2nd tee and have your two loops.

[ForkaB]

Fuggedaboot Mobius.  Now that Poincare's conjecture has been sovled, what would he have to say about routing?

Oh yeah, and loopy routings are highly overrated......

[JESII]

JES II,

Then you and Redanman apparently disagree with Donald Ross on the subject.

Can't please them all Pat.

By the way, what was his view?

[Phil McDade]

Isn't the non-looped Pinehurst #2 generally regarded as one of Ross's best designs? And given that there is plenty of (presumably similar quality) land adjacent to the 18th hole, couldn't Ross have routed the front nine back to the clubhouse (he was headed that way after #7), rather than site holes 8 and 9 where he did?

[Dean Paolucci]

Pat - Interestingly, two of my personal favorites most certainly agree and disagree!

The Knoll is a classic example of counter then clockwise front and back.  Brilliant routing touching every compass point hence every possible environmental (wind, rain, sun, etc.) consideration.

Sleepy Hollow on the other hand has no internal routing.  Just out and back!  The nines do not even return to the Clubhouse.  

Both are incredible examples of great golf courses with enormous variety and interest.  I guess great is great even if it does not follow what we know to be classic methodologies.

[Dean Paolucci]

Sleepy Hollow Layout
http://www.sleepyhollowcc.org/club/scripts/golf/view_course.asp?CID=312&GRP=8&NS=PUBLIC

Knoll Layout
N/A
 

[Dean Paolucci]

redanman - Thanks for the assist!

[James Bennett]

Sully (and others)

the thing that intrigued me at Huntingdon Valley was the C 9.  Yes, the A 9 is an outer anti-clockwise loop, and the B 9 an inner clockwise loop, but the C9 contains an outer clockwise 5 hole loop followed ny an inner anti-clockwise 4-hole loop .

I found the routing of the C9 to be more pleasurable, revisiting areas recently traversed, and seeing areas coming up.

There is more 'unknown' on the A9 becuase you don't get any glimpses across the course.  This is neither good nor bad, merely an observation.

Lehigh (and HCEG) will have to wait another day.

James B

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

You have to admit, when it comes to loopy, Redanman is an expert  

Here's a quick freehand stick routing of Huntingdon Valley CC:



The A and B 9s are at the bottom and around the perimeter of the valley.

Here's a stick routing of Lehigh CC:



The key to the routing is the walk from 1 green to 2 tee bypassing 18 and 17.  This enables a counterclockwise first nine and the twisty second nine within the first nine.

[paul cowley]

Guys.....the key to a mobius strip is that one must go around twice to be back at the beginning [go ahead and make one and follow it around, twice]....so a complete mobius routing can only be 18 holes unless you want to finish 9 holes out from the clubhouse..........like why do I come here?......d :)h.