[Matt_Ward]

Mike C:

Rochelle Ranch is one of those undernoticed courses. Fortunately, I had the time and desire to see it after people posted info -- Doug Wright and others -- about it.

The Kavanaugh design is really well done. You can walk the course and the flavor is really superb -- small town (9,000) and everyone is as friendly as can be.

The greens are a mix bag -- because of the heavy winds that can blow Kavanaugh didn't provide the kind of massive contouring you see at say a Dismal River. On the flip side what he has done, given the limited budget, is to have green sites which fall-off depending upon the type of approach you play.

Each of the four par-3's excels for that reason and others.

I don't know where Ken learned his camouflaging techniques but this is one course that the serious public course player needs to keep on their radar screen -- it is literally right off I-80 and if the turf issues on the few holes where it is present are resolved the overall stock of the course should rise.

[Lou_Duran]

Matt,

Have you thought about the effects of trees and other flora on the sight lines?  Sometimes I'll get on a tee and a particular tree, typically on the left side not far in front of the tee, gets in my field of vision and dominates my entire thought process.  I'll talk to the pro or someone associated with the club afterwards and they barely remember that particular tree, but point to other holes where they have a similar experience.  The effects seem to be varied from individual to individual, and possibly from time to time.

How about shading and the effects of light on sight lines?  When a side of the fairway is darken, does it make it more disconcerting to you?  It does me on ocassion.  

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

Shade is certainly an issue -- but it's subject to a time of day concern -- the one I highlighted in Wyoming is present -- whether the sun shines or not and is more inspired by the usage of the physical characteristics of the site in question.

Lou, since we're on the subject -- I can name a southwest Texas course that uses the technique I just mentioned with sage bushes and the like -- Painted Dunes Desert GC in El Paso. There's plenty of that brought forward by architect Ken Dye.

[Doug Wright]

Matt,

Good thread topic. Contraposed to the "least favorite design features" thread, this feature is one of my favorites. I think creating doubt in the golfer's mind is a key design element, and limited sight lines do that in spades, even if you've played the hole many times. Of course, it's a big world and this feature shouldn't be used on every tee shot but used discreetly it's a great feature IMO.

When I read this thread one of the first courses that came to mind was Ken Dye's Pinon Hills. There are several tee shots at this fine muny course in Farmington NM that are semiblind and seem very narrow yet offer generous landing areas.

Also, Ballyneal #6 and #14 offer great contrasting tee shots after the holes that precede them. Tom Doak easily could have made the #6 tee shot a more typical shot to a visible fairway from the hill nearby but chose not to.  

[TEPaul]

Matt Ward:

Man, all of a sudden you seem to be into various nuances I just love. This is one of them, as I think the modern day basic requirement of showing the golfer precisely where he should and shouldn't hit the ball is way overdone. Let him figure it out for himself by really studying the architecture and if he feels that hasn't done the job, let him use his imagination.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

All of Matt's travelling at light speed has him morphing into the reincarnation of Max Baer.

If you see Wayne M.'s comments yesterday about his confusion with Matt's grammar and phrasing, you'll see that even Matt's writing style is similiarly evolving into Baerlike constructs.  

[Lou_Duran]

Matt,

Your example of Painted Dunes is an excellent one (though I've only played the original nines by Ken Dye and not Jeff Brauers).  I would say that on at least a third of the holes starting right on #1, one stands on the tee with a high level of incertitude.  This is lessened I am sure with subsequent play, though what the eye can't see will typically create doubt.  I found myself hitting less than full, confident shots off the tee.

BTW, when I was there earlier in April, the course was in the process or had just changed hands.  The bunkers were in atrocious condition, and the desert was reclaiming parts of several fairways.  Here is hoping that it gets a well positioned, knowledgeable owner.  Like Pinion Hills, the course is an important part of that community.

[Phil Benedict]

Pete Dye did a good job at the Stadium Course at PGA West of obscuring the target line off the tee.  Maybe that's why the pros didn't like it.  Underrated course, BTW.  

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

The sad reality is that if Painted Dunes Desert GC were nearer to a larger metro area -- although El Paso isn't really small -- then the fanfare of that course would be much larger.

The PGA Tour has held qualifiers for membership on the facility and when the wind kicks-up you have to really know the spots to hit your shots. It's very demanding to play the layout because you must handle the wind -- the turning points that Dye has included -- PLUS -- the vexing sight lines that are tough to pick out -- even after playing there a few times.

If I had to make a listing of the best designed / most affordable layout one can play Painted Dunes DGC would most certainly be on the list with the likes of Wild Horse, Rochelle Ranch, etc, etc.

Tom Paul:

Don't blow smoke my way otherwise my head will grow so big -- I will need to return to the subject that's so near and dear to your heart ...

COURSE RATINGS !!!

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