[Matt_Ward]

One of the design elements I would like to see more of is the obfuscation of sight lines from the playing tees.

At Rochelle Ranch in Rawlins, WY -- a Ken Kavanaugh design -- you have several hole situations whereby the player is forced to deal with vague or unclear sight lines. What I mean by this is that the landing zones are partially obscured by rises and falls in the terrain.

Just picking out a spot in which to land one's tee ball can be most vexing when there isn't a very clear or easy spot to aim your ball at when teeing off.

Unfortunately, because of the use of the modern bulldozer you often get razor-like cut fairways which simply push such elements out of the way in order to provide total ease / comfort for the players.

I like the rush in not knowing how a particular shot has turned out and when you have difficult to read sight lines the element of knowing / unknowing makes for an interesting design feature that needs to be more and more on what designers can add to their work.

Curious to the comments of others and how they view this topic.

P.S. You often see such situations in Ireland and in the UK but less and less so here in the States.

[JESII]

Unfortunately, because of the use of the modern bulldozer you often get razor-like cut fairways which simply push such elements out of the way in order to provide total ease / comfort for the players.

Matt,

I agree with you about the value of uncertainty. I quoted the above sentence though because I was not quite sure what you are saying there. In your opinion, does use of the modern bulldozer help or hinder an attempt to hide sight lines?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Matt-

  This is a good topic.  I think in modern times, Kelly Blake Moran does this with a lot of success, specifically with many of the holes at Lederach.  

[Doug Bolls]

I think that sight lines from the tee box should be clearly defined - a golfer should know exactly where to hit the drive in order to have the best approach to the green.  Not that there shouldn't be choices - if you can hit the ball into the more risky landing area then you have a better shot into the green.
Ben Hogan designed only one golf course - in his description he was clear that the golfer would be able to see every landing area - no blind shots - his philosophy was that the drive was the shot you hit in order to have the best shot into the green.
When Tiger was describing what he thought made Medinah such a great course, he said something to the effect that everything was right there in front of you - you could see what you had to do, and it was up to you to do it.  It wasn't tricked up with blind shots.
And yet, unpredictibility in where the ball will end up is one of the things that makes golf courses so interesting - take the 10th at Mike Stranz's Tot Hill - you have to hit the ball over a block wall in order to have a good shot into the green - not exactly your typical sight line - but you know what you have to do and the reward is there if you do it right.
I like to know what is out there, and where I have to hit it.

[Tim Liddy]

There is a bit of difference between tournament golf and club golf.  In tournament golf, players always want to see the landing area and how there golf ball finishes.  Tour players do not want surprises. Club players enjoy the chance, strategy and variety that the half-blind shot can afford. Tour players do not want strategy or chance. They want utter, boring fairness.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

Sounds awesome.   That type of vagueness is one of my favorite design features.

Perhaps Ken needs to have a little talk with John.  

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

Anecdote with Morgan Hill.

Standing on the 18th tee, I initially aimed my tee shot down the first fairway and wondered aloud "Why would someone put the hole sign right down the centerline of the hole?"

LOVED it.  

[JMorgan]

The shot of faith is one of the truest markers of an exceptional routing narrative.  While too much blindness is a bad thing, no journey is truly complete without at least one good leap.  

[Matt_Ward]

JES II:

From my limited playing experiences I would think that a good number of architects have taken fairness to the ultimate conclusion in that all mystery and all unknown situations out of the mix.

I'm not saying the use of a bulldozer is 100% correct or incorrect but that a bit more attention needs to be applied because the unqiue aspects of a given property cannot be morphed into looking like all other types of property.

My thinking -- shall I call it that -- is that the design should simply meander around a said piece of property and that all elements such as grade or terrain change need to be kept to a minimum unless a solid reason applies (e.g. drainage, routing a type of hole, etc, etc)

I find that really disturbing because like I said before -- at Kavanaugh's Rochelle Ranch, to name just one example, you have numerous instances where the top line of the sage brush simply blends into the fairway areas that are just below eye level from the tee. It takes a bit of effort to line oneself up and to play to the correct side and feel "comfortable" doing it.

Sight lines do not mean 100% blind shots -- what I speaking about is the desire to overdo the bulldozer and eliminate all the elements of a given site to the point where one site is simply a reincarnation of all other sites.

[JESII]

Good answer Matt, thank you.

I think I agree with you on this subject as completely as possible.

I call those type of tee shots "half-blind" because you can generally see the area you are aiming for but cannot quite make out the borders of your landing area and depth perception is also a bit confusing.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Personally, I prefer a totally blind shot, with some definition as to direction to one Matt describes. Hey, its fun to watch the ball land, and safer, too.  However, there are still safety issues.

The last thing I want to hear on a golf course is, "This is my Titleist, I think that's your ball under the dead guy....."

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

I'll go on step further -- the worse thing is when two golfers approach each other from separate fairways and don't know which hole they are on because they all look the same.

The safety issues can be accomodated so that what I am suggesting is not thrown 100% out the window.

[Tony Ristola]

I'm all for holes that don't spell out everything from the tee. 18 suh holes would be a bit much, but nobody complains too much about TOC.  A second time around such a hole and you'll know a little more. Different conditions, winds, soil firmness probably keeps such holes a little more mysterious for longer periods because you can't see where the ball lands and how it reacts.

[BCrosby]

JES II:

From my limited playing experiences I would think that a good number of architects have taken fairness to the ultimate conclusion in that all mystery and all unknown situations out of the mix.

I'm not saying the use of a bulldozer is 100% correct or incorrect but that a bit more attention needs to be applied because the unqiue aspects of a given property cannot be morphed into looking like all other types of property.

My thinking -- shall I call it that -- is that the design should simply meander around a said piece of property and that all elements such as grade or terrain change need to be kept to a minimum unless a solid reason applies (e.g. drainage, routing a type of hole, etc, etc)

I find that really disturbing because like I said before -- at Kavanaugh's Rochelle Ranch, to name just one example, you have numerous instances where the top line of the sage brush simply blends into the fairway areas that are just below eye level from the tee. It takes a bit of effort to line oneself up and to play to the correct side and feel "comfortable" doing it.

Sight lines do not mean 100% blind shots -- what I speaking about is the desire to overdo the bulldozer and eliminate all the elements of a given site to the point where one site is simply a reincarnation of all other sites.

Agreed.

The very last person you want to consult about such issues is a touring pro. And the very last touring pro you would want to consult is Ben Hogan.

BTW, Matt, you sound like a modern day Max Behr.

Bob  

[Matt_Ward]

One of the more effective techniques you see at Rochelle Ranch is the use of the grounds on th 2nd hole. Here you have a slightly uphill hill that moves right but the final resting place for the tee shot can be obscured by the rise the hole provides.

Most players will not be able to get over the rise but for those who are capable you have to be very cognizant in not working the ball too close to the right side as it is infested with sage bushes that give no quarter for anything resembling a full golf swing.

It's amazing to me that adding some elements that can take the player out of their comfort zone is just one technique architects should use more frequently. What's amazing is that such a fun public course right off I-80 and four hours from either Denver / Salt Lake City has such a tool on a few holes there.

[JESII]

Matt,

You and I agree, as do most on here probably, that this idea of uncertainty is very good when used on terrain that plays into the concept. I think the majority of the golf world prefers it the other way. The way that lets the players see everything they may encounter on the hole right from the outset. That means the people that are funding golf course development these days more than likely prefer to see where they are going as well.

Do you think it may have been a financial concern at Rochelle Ranch that kept the architect from clearing away any visual obstruction to tee shots?

[Matt_Ward]

JES II:

No, in fact I think they may have cleared too much of these items because they continue to have some issues regarding the growing of fairway grasses on a few holes.

Part of their issue rests in not having clean water to use -- that has since changed as they are now able to use H20 from the North Platte River which is nearby.

Back to the topic ...

I think Ken Kavanaugh did quite well at Rochelle Ranch in providing sufficient width because the course is often wind blown. An an FYI -- the area of Rawlins is on a direct path of the winds that come sweeping down from Canada and off the mountain ranges to the west.

Creatively, Kavanaugh simply used the natural sage bushes to maximum effect.

Give you an example -- the 650+ par-5 6th uses the technique a bit differently. After you hit your tee shot the sage bushes are angled in from both sides to narrow the opening for where you intend to hit your second shot. Kavanaugh also provided openings beyond the bushes but then you must carry your ball to get to that spot.

Frankly, Rochelle Ranch is a great example in accomplishing plenty with such a limited budget. IMHO, if turf conditions are stablized the course has the wherewithal to be mentioned in the same breath as Wild Horse in Nebraka and that's not just groundless hype on my part.

[JESII]

Thanks MAtt,

Rochelle Ranch sounds great....if we could only get the damn trees out of the bunkers.

[Matt_Ward]

JES II:

You should check out their site at rochelleranch.com -- click on the connection for the "hole layout" and click on the schematic for the 5th hole. You can see what I referred to previously.

If you click on the other holes -- check out the 2nd as an example -- you can see how the land simply melds very closely to what the native cover is. It''s very effective and serve a point that sometimes architects work too hard on a given hole when simplistic alternatives work more effectively and cheaply.

Keep in mind a sage bush is not a tree. Just for saying that the folks there might toss you our before even playing !

[A.G._Crockett]

Matt,
You should love Strantz courses; I think that hiding a very generous landing area while only showing an indication from the tee as to where the ball should be aimed was a huge part of his genius, and a huge part of what makes his courses so thrilling to play.

The Pinnacle course at Troon North is the first course that I ever recall playing where this was common.  I found it really, really exciting and fun.  Stressful to decide where to aim, then exciting to arrive at a shot that had ended up in great shape.

[ed_getka]

I like a mix of half-blind/partially blind shots in a golf course. The first time around it is disconcerting, but in subsequent rounds I find it enjoyable how that partially blind shot will introduce an element of uncertainty into your commitment to the shot. I also don't mind the occasional blind shot, but more than 2 or 3 in a round seems a bit much for my tastes.

[JESII]

Now that is a great looking golf course. Thanks for the heads up Matt.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

Rochelle Ranch looks absolutely fantastic tee to green from the website pictures.   Are the greens interesting, as well?

btw, any truth to the nasty rumor that Ken Kavanaugh learned his advanced camouflaging techniques trying to hide from his brother?  

[Matt_Ward]

JES II:

I will start a thread separately on Rochelle Ranch but suffice to say -- Ken Kavanaugh did a superlative design effort there.

The green fees for playing are also among the lowest you can play for a superior design. The issue is twofold -- the location lends itself to a total of less than 10,000 rounds per year. They could easily double that and not effect the turf or cause undue slow play.

The second is really getting over the turf issues that have been present from the very beginning. I believe using the fresh water from the North Platte River should do that.

Keep in mind that Rochelle Ranch sports a CR just under 76.0 and can play nearly 8,000 yards from the tips. Throw in the wind that can howl through the site and just about any type of golfer will be tested there.

Plenty of justitifed ink goes the way of Wild Horse but I can assure you that Rochelle Ranch never suffers fools and although it may not appear as such - the four par-3 holes there are among the best you can play from a public course in all of the mountain time zone -- and that's no cheap hype.

Relating to the topic at hand -- if you notice the sage bushes you can see how they obscure quite nicely the landing zones so you have to be especially aware on what it is you are doing with preparing to tee off.

[JWL]

Matt

One of the great site lines in all of golf is the same on the 18th holes of TWO great golf courses.

I have recently pointed this out to different people like Peter Kessler, Brad Klein and others.

I wonder if you were able to pick up it on one of your recent excursions.  

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