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TEPaul

What is it that eventually gets some holes and some courses and some architecture to that point where no one thinks to change them? Perhaps even to the point where no one would ever dare to?

Max Behr talked about this general concept to some extent---his philosophy became known as "Permanent Architecture".

Behr talked about that concept and philosophy in two distinct ways---eg what it took to actually construct something that would withstand the forces of Nature (his tag-line in this way was that one should both analyze and imitate landform structures that had the greatest chance of withstanding the evolutionary ravages of Nature's ways, particularly the flow of water and also wind).

But his other point was one of an eventual appreciation that led to permenancy of architecture. His thought, generally, was that if an architect made something man-made that looked natural enough instead of clearly artificial, golfers generally would subconsciously or consciously accept it, where they would tend not to do that if they suspected something that tripped them up was the creation of another man (architect)

What are some of the ways some golf architecture gets to that point?

Both MacKenzie and Macdonald said that eventual level of appreciation actually required a certain amount and a certain type of controversy.

That seems a bit counterintuitive but it seems to be absolutely true, as the examples of that around the world and over time seem to prove them right.

But how so, exactly?

If you stand a dozen people shoulder to shoulder in front of a beautiful American elm in the middle of a beautiful field (no golf course), are they really seeing the same thing? Would they see the same thing if you merely put golf clubs in their hands? ;)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2006, 07:39:05 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:What is it exactly that constitutes respect for architecture?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2006, 07:51:05 AM »
TE
How do you explain the fate of Behr's own architecture?

For whatever reason Nature and man were not so kind.

TEPaul

Re:What is it exactly that constitutes respect for architecture?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2006, 09:26:45 AM »
"TE
How do you explain the fate of Behr's own architecture?
For whatever reason Nature and man were not so kind."

Well, Tom, that's the point, isn't it? And that's part of the point of this thread.

Would you care to take a stab at it, instead of simply following a question with another question?

At least we all have the benefit of seeing what transpired in the 50-80 years since Behr wrote of his philosophy.

Did he misjudge architecture or Nature or the golfer (since even his architecture was partially destroyed by Nature and more than partially destroyed by man)?

Or did he misunderstand and misinterpret the underlying sensibilities of golfers when it comes to how they feel about golf architecture?

Or, lastly did golf and golfers simply fail to understand him and what he was saying or are golfers simply led by the nose semi-happily down any road one cares to lead them?

These are some fundamental questions, in my opinion, particularly now that we at least have the benefit of a considerable amount of time past to ruminate on them.

But one thing I think I do know and that is it would probably do us all a whole lot better, and probably golf architecture too, if we took the time to truly understand not just golf architecture but golfers, and their sensibilities as well, instead of automatically blaming them for some of the things we may not like.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is it exactly that constitutes respect for architecture?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2006, 09:34:15 AM »
I think Behr's architecture is long gone not because of nature, but because of the nature of the Southern California real estate market - i.e. land values.

I think the true test of respect for architecture is that a course does survive in any semblance of its original self - it has enough value to withstand changes in economics, ownership, etc.  

If it has bones good enough to save the routing through years of changing attitudes, then it has done pretty well for itself.  If it has features good enough for many of them to survive nearly intact its really a tribute to the original design.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is it exactly that constitutes respect for architecture?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2006, 09:34:25 AM »
TE,
I really don't think there is a respect for architecture itself in this country....it's all about $$$$$$$
If a Winged Foot was built as a public course in the south...yuo would never hear of it....and same goes for many....
It's all about clubs that were able to survive and had the money to maintain their courses while promoting tem via USGA tournaments etc....same for today....its all marketing....

Tell me....if the top 100 list were in some way able to be determined without knowing who the architect was or how nice the clubhouse was or no refelction toward maintenance.....would they be the same......NO....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

T_MacWood

Re:What is it exactly that constitutes respect for architecture?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2006, 09:49:45 AM »
Jeff
You don't think Mother Nature had effect upon the fate of Lakeside?

TE
At Lakeside he definitely misjudged Nature, but he wasn't the only one. I'm not sure about Rancho Santa Fe.

As far as architecture not surviving it usually boils down to a few factors - maintenance, economics, playibility and fashion.

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is it exactly that constitutes respect for architecture?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2006, 09:52:47 AM »
To have respect, you first have to have knowledge.

Mike,
I agree, and when auditions for an orchestra are "blind" (performing behind a curtain), you find things like an increase in female trombone players.

If Pinehurst No.2 were built today, it wouldn't register on the radar.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2006, 09:54:57 AM by Tony Ristola »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is it exactly that constitutes respect for architecture?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2006, 09:55:00 AM »
TE,
Is there any course in the world where no change has occurred? Or any where no one has dared to change them?
If so, they must be in a distinct minority.

I generally agree that if features look 'natural' they will be more readily acceptable, but I don't think that fact alone would stop change.

If the architecture doesn't raise your interest level then you won't be able to appreciate it, and for that to happen a little controversy must be added to the mix. Our ninth is controversial because it asks players to think. There are several ways to play the hole, some more difficult than others, and when players make the wrong choice the hole will exact a large penalty. It also seems to lure players into compounding their mistakes. I think that's why it's controversial, it offers 'safe' ways to play and not so safe ways, and if you make the wrong choice you only have yourself to blame.  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is it exactly that constitutes respect for architecture?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2006, 10:06:59 AM »
Jeff
You don't think Mother Nature had effect upon the fate of Lakeside?

TE
At Lakeside he definitely misjudged Nature, but he wasn't the only one. I'm not sure about Rancho Santa Fe.

As far as architecture not surviving it usually boils down to a few factors - maintenance, economics, playibility and fashion.

Tom,

I am not familiar with the effect of "mom" on Lakeside.  Please fill me in.  However, we agree (as does Mike Y) that there are factors well outside architecture that usually determine the fate of a course.  I think I would re-order your priorities to put economics first, and perhaps second and third. ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

T_MacWood

Re:What is it exactly that constitutes respect for architecture?
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2006, 10:16:02 AM »
Behr routed four or five holes beside and over the LA River...their fate was doomed by a devestating flood. But you are right about SoCal too, not so much realstate, but the newer architects there not having much appreciation for the older work..not unlike Chicago.


Tony
I don't think it would register.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2006, 10:25:00 AM by Tom MacWood »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is it exactly that constitutes respect for architecture?
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2006, 11:01:49 AM »
I don't think the survival of a course over the years indicates very much about its design merit.

Here in Atlanta the oldest courses are a mixed bag of good, bad and indifferent architecture. As far as I can tell their survival rate is mostly a function of club economics. I'd guess that's true of most cities.

Contra Mike Young, there are plenty of courses whose architectural merit is recognizable from the parking lot. Put masking tape over the club name and anyone with a passing interest in gca will spot good designs.

If you don't think PII would be one of those courses, how about NGLA, PVGC, Cypress, ANGC, Lawsonia and on and on? Do people really think the merits of those courses could be missed for long? Wherever they might be located?

TEP -

Whew. You raise very big issues. Give me a couple of weeks and I'll get back.

There is no doubt that Max Behr - whatever the vicissitudes of the courses he designed - was way ahead of his contemporaries (including MacK, MacD, Thomas, the whole lot of them) in thinking through the issues. Electing to design "strategic" courses brings with it a lot of baggage. Few architects have dealt with that baggage forthrightly. Behr did. Or he tried to. He understood that architects of the strategic bent had to come to terms with certain assumptions about what golf is about. That's a big, long messy discussion.  

I wish he had been a more disciplined writer. His style hasn't done his reputation any favors. But there is little doubt that he at least tried to wrestle with the big issues. Not many other did. So, full points to Behr.

I do think that he was/is totally out of step with typical American views of golf and golf design. Even during his life it sounds like he was viewed as something of a nut case. But that doesn't mean he wasn't on to something very, very important.

Just thinking out loud.

Bob  

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is it exactly that constitutes respect for architecture?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2006, 11:08:04 AM »
If a course no matter how good it is doesn't make money and/or satisfy in some way an individual or group that could care less about $$$, it will fade away (sometimes over night) or be changed.

Furthermore, all golf courses evolve.  That is their nature (no pun intended).    

TEPaul

Re:What is it exactly that constitutes respect for architecture?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2006, 11:15:23 AM »
Bob:

Obviously Behr was an eccentric in many ways. Not all, but probably a good slice of the people who come up with interesting innovations of thought and deed are eccentrics of one kind or another.

Seems to me that others such as Macdonald, Mackenzie, Thomas, Hunter, Simpson, Muirhead, Crump, Tillinghast et al had some pretty strong streaks of eccentricity, and Behr surely did.

My mother used to say if a nation, particularly one like Britain, ever lost its eccentrics it would basically be done for.

;)

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is it exactly that constitutes respect for architecture?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2006, 11:27:51 AM »
TEP -

As in most things, your mother was right. The British have a healthy tolerance of and appreciation for eccentrics. Which is why Behr might have become much more famous if he had chosen to live in London rather than LA.

Bob

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