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Mike_Young

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I honestly don't know the answer but when i see a list such as Wayne Morrison has compiled of W Flynn projects I would assume he did....but many did not do nearly that much work......I just don't see where there was ever a market large enough to support these guys as a lifetime career.....and if I recall a few were TFB's anyway.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 08:59:00 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Sweeney

Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2006, 09:13:37 PM »
Mike,

How many artist or creative people have ever been well paid?

_____________________

Researchers at Salzburg’s International Mozarteum Foundation say records of Mozart’s estate indicate that his widow barely had enough cash to bury him, and that he owed thousands, including debts to his tailor, cobbler and pharmacist.

________________


Does the fact that Tilly and Mozart were broke when they died make their creations any more or less valuable?


Mike_Young

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Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2006, 09:39:40 PM »
Mike,
I meant to say the field was so small that they had to be doing something else besides golf architecture or either they had family money....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tyler Kearns

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Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2006, 10:10:21 PM »
CB Macdonald never received a fee for his services, because he was both wealthy and actively involved in amateur golf. At the time, architectural fees would have broke the rules of amateur status. Often, as compensation, Macdonald was given a lifetime membership at the club.

TK

wsmorrison

Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2006, 10:12:46 PM »
Flynn did not come from money, his father was a day laborer, but apparently he married into an old Boston family.  He made a decent living at golf architecture, enough to keep on two regular construction crews.  He made considerably more money in investments (friends like Rockefeller, Geist, Lasker and others didn't hurt) and so was not harmed much by the Depression.  

Flynn owned a golf course, was a part owner of the Eagles and owned 2 car dealerships, one of which floundered because of a poor manager.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 10:13:19 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Mike_Young

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Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2006, 10:45:10 PM »
Tyler,
Well that is one down.....

Wayne,
Would it be fair to assume that the construction cost of the project maintained Flynn's constrcution crews?  And also if he were part owner of the Eagles and had two auto dealerships how much time did he spend with these??
Not slamming Flynn's work at all.....he may have been the exception
But it does help me support my theory that this business was rarely a fulltime career until around RTJ....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adam Clayman

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Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2006, 10:48:03 PM »
Mike, I've heard Ran mention the fact m any were amateur, only in the sense that they did not recieve payment.

 But I can't help but think, some here would argue, in more ways.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike_Young

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Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2006, 10:54:17 PM »
Mike, I've heard Ran mention the fact m any were amateur, only in the sense that they did not recieve payment.

 But I can't help but think, some here would argue, in more ways.
I would not argue that they were amateur as much as the thought many of their reputations were enhanced by time and clubs with money to let their projects evolve and be maintained  at excellent levels....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adam Clayman

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Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2006, 11:00:37 PM »
Thinking of Neville at Pebble, I'm not sure how long the course was maintained as designed. Clearly from the pictures that hang outsie the Tap Room, the course is remarkably different today.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tony_Muldoon

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Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2006, 03:18:26 AM »
If you can get hold of Colt and Co, it's clear he had a very nice lifestyle into a long retirement due to his success as a GCA. The same was pretty much true for his associates Alison and Morrison.

From what I know of Mozart, and what I've read on here about Tillie, it was more a case of neither observing Mr Macawber's dictum.  Had either of them had a more controlled lifestyle and invested when times were good, then by the standards of their day they recieved adequate funds to live very well indeed.  But then of course they wouldn't have been the same person at all.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Phil_the_Author

Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2006, 05:10:02 AM »
Mike and Tony, the two of you are incorrect in your perceptions of the financial status of Tilly during the last few years of his life and at the time of his death.

Mike, you wrote, "Does the fact that Tilly and Mozart were broke when they died make their creations any more or less valuable?"

Tony, you wrote, "From what I know of Mozart, and what I've read on here about Tillie, it was more a case of neither observing Mr Macawber's dictum.  Had either of them had a more controlled lifestyle and invested when times were good, then by the standards of their day they recieved adequate funds to live very well indeed."

Though not wealthy, Tilly was by no means broke nor destitute. While it is true that he lost his Harrington Park home to pay back taxes owed in 1936, this was not as a result of his lacking funds or not having paid. He was caught in the middle of a situation where the person who held his mortgage was supposed to be paying the taxes out of the funds he was given and HE failed to do so, theerby causing the tax sale.

If it hadn't occurred while Tilly was traveling for the PGA he would have been able to prevent it. Still, he was able to return in time to stop the auction and so retain almost all of the home's furnishings including a large number of extremely valuable antiques. I have personally seen some of these and many are worth at or near 6 figures and more today.

He offered many of these for sale in California at the antiques store that he opened three years later. If one is broke, how can you afford to transport a household full of furnishings clear across the country, especially when a moving company is paid to do this.

In addition to this, Tilly had given his wife a number of very valuable pieces of jewelry that they never sold or got rid of. If he was broke at this time, these would have surely been sold. Again, many are still in the family possession and are quite lovely as I have seen these as well.

Finally, Tilly had several other sources of income. He was working for the Pacific Coast Golfer magazine and what almost everyone is unaware of is that his father's company, the Tillinghast Rubber Goods Company, was still in business and would not be closed till some five years after his death. Though small, this too supplied him with a bit of income.

In addition, he also rid himself of some golf-related items such as his personal library that he sold to a gentleman from Virginia in whose family it still resides.

No, Tilly was not broke when he died and he was not rich either.

Yes, he misspent and wasted funds throughout his life, but nowhere near the amounts that most people think he did. This is a story, similar to some of the ones about his drinking, that have simply grown in the telling.

Just thought I'd clear that up. THere is a wonderful biography of Tillinghast now available in which one can find all of these facts and more!  ;D

wsmorrison

Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2006, 06:57:57 AM »
"Would it be fair to assume that the construction cost of the project maintained Flynn's constrcution crews?"

Yes, Mike.  Flynn's design business and construction business were associated businesses.  The construction work was derived from Flynn's design business.  Flynn benefitted from both endeavors.  My comment was meant to say that Flynn had enough design work to maintain two work crews.  Of course, the construction fees paid the construction crew.

"And also if he were part owner of the Eagles and had two auto dealerships how much time did he spend with these??
Not slamming Flynn's work at all.....he may have been the exception."

The Philadelphia Eagles did not come into the League until 1933.  Flynn's ownership of the Eagles was later, but during that decade's distinct downturn in golf course business.  During this same dry spell Flynn bought the two dealerships (Ford and Dodge).  Also during this time Flynn's crews worked on the Rockefeller estate in Tarrytown and did turf work for the US Government (airports, military bases, etc).


"But it does help me support my theory that this business was rarely a fulltime career until around RTJ...."

Perhaps so.

Mike_Young

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Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2006, 07:31:22 AM »
Mike and Tony, the two of you are incorrect in your perceptions of the financial status of Tilly during the last few years of his life and at the time of his death.

Mike, you wrote, "Does the fact that Tilly and Mozart were broke when they died make their creations any more or less valuable?"

Tony, you wrote, "From what I know of Mozart, and what I've read on here about Tillie, it was more a case of neither observing Mr Macawber's dictum.  Had either of them had a more controlled lifestyle and invested when times were good, then by the standards of their day they recieved adequate funds to live very well indeed."

Though not wealthy, Tilly was by no means broke nor destitute. While it is true that he lost his Harrington Park home to pay back taxes owed in 1936, this was not as a result of his lacking funds or not having paid. He was caught in the middle of a situation where the person who held his mortgage was supposed to be paying the taxes out of the funds he was given and HE failed to do so, theerby causing the tax sale.

If it hadn't occurred while Tilly was traveling for the PGA he would have been able to prevent it. Still, he was able to return in time to stop the auction and so retain almost all of the home's furnishings including a large number of extremely valuable antiques. I have personally seen some of these and many are worth at or near 6 figures and more today.

He offered many of these for sale in California at the antiques store that he opened three years later. If one is broke, how can you afford to transport a household full of furnishings clear across the country, especially when a moving company is paid to do this.

In addition to this, Tilly had given his wife a number of very valuable pieces of jewelry that they never sold or got rid of. If he was broke at this time, these would have surely been sold. Again, many are still in the family possession and are quite lovely as I have seen these as well.

Finally, Tilly had several other sources of income. He was working for the Pacific Coast Golfer magazine and what almost everyone is unaware of is that his father's company, the Tillinghast Rubber Goods Company, was still in business and would not be closed till some five years after his death. Though small, this too supplied him with a bit of income.

In addition, he also rid himself of some golf-related items such as his personal library that he sold to a gentleman from Virginia in whose family it still resides.

No, Tilly was not broke when he died and he was not rich either.

Yes, he misspent and wasted funds throughout his life, but nowhere near the amounts that most people think he did. This is a story, similar to some of the ones about his drinking, that have simply grown in the telling.

Just thought I'd clear that up. THere is a wonderful biography of Tillinghast now available in which one can find all of these facts and more!  ;D
Phillip,
I find all of the above interesting.....but again it says to me that "architecture did not support these guys".....I can't make the numbers work by estimating their fee times the courses theu designed over a certain time frame.....I figured there were other income streams somewhere....
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

T_MacWood

Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2006, 08:53:17 AM »
Most of the prominent old dead guys made more than a comfortable living, some a small fortune. I've seen their fees for new a design be anywhere from $2000 on the low end up to $10000. MacKenzie's fee at Ohio State was $10000.

The average income in 1920 was $1236 (as compared to about $28,000+ in 2000). Colt, Ross, MacKenzie, Thompson, Park, Tillinghast, Raynor, Flynn must have made killing in their prime. Of course that all changed in 1929. Another factor, some of these old dead guys were not the best businessmen.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 08:53:48 AM by Tom MacWood »

Phil_the_Author

Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2006, 12:04:30 PM »
Mike,

My point with the info about Tilly's finances actually does show that he made a very good living out of being an architect.

Back in the mid-1920s, his proposal for the contract for 5 Farms stated, "My minimum fee for eighteen holes is Three thousand dollars. I see nothing to warrant any addition to this and consequently I will agree to make detailed plans for thirty-six holes… acting in a general advisory capacity until both courses are ready for play, visiting the grounds from time to time as may be necessary to produce courses which will be satisfactory to you and myself, for six thousand dollars and expenses incidental to travel and lodging…"

$3,000 for the course design PLUS expenses was a great deal of money in 1926 (date of opening). That year also saw his work completed at Bridgton-Highlands CC (9 holes), Davis Island GC (9 holes), Erie GC, Forest Hill FC, Golden Valley CC, Rochester G&CC, Rockaway HC(among others). In addition to these original designs were a number of other courses where he was doing renovations & additions.

Just the raw numbers for this year suggest he made in excess of $25,000 direct income for himself and this doesn't include money from other areas such as his golf writing. There were a number of years in the twenties where he made even more.

That he lost money backing Broadway shows, bad business investments and some high spending is true, but he also invested some of his money in fine antiques and collectibles that he would then go on to sell from his first antiques store in New Jersey during this same time.

I have found newspaper articles highlighting some of these sales. For example, on one occasion he sold a set of autographs, autographed letters and rare documents that he had collected over time for more than $60,000. These included a number of items including the last pardon the President ever signed.

Yes, he made significant revenues from this non-golf related area, but only because his golf course design income allowed him to purchase these in the first place.

 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2006, 12:23:51 PM »
Phillip,

Did Tillie have any staff or an office to pay for?

If Tom Mac is right, and I think he is close, then in 1920, $3000/$1236 was a fee of 2.47 times the average wage.  In 2000, a similar fee would be about $68,000, which is too low for a modern design office.  Now, if he did his own drawings and worked out of his house, that would be about right for a fee (most hourly rates in design offices are based on 2.5-3 times actual pay to the employee)

That $25K in total income in 1926 might equate to 20 times the average income of the day, translating perhaps to $566,000 in todays dollars though.  And that $60,000 antique sale could (and probably did) carry him for 20-30 years if he lived only a bit above average lifestyle.

Kind of odd by todays standards that he had an arrangement for someone else to pay taxes on the Harrington Park home, though.  Was he a renter, buyer, or lease to purchase kind of guy?

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

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Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2006, 02:06:26 PM »
Ok, so we have mentioned about three guys that may have made a living at it.  
Let's say that the average fee for a course, I SAID AVERAGE, during that time was $1000.....and say 200 courses were built in a year....$200,000..doesn't work....

Now let's say that today there will be 150 courses open next year and the average fee is $250,000.   It doesn't work......even today....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2006, 02:25:06 PM »
Our topic is drifting like an untethered blimp now, but I have always wondered about the economics of this biz.  (So did my ex and banker!) ;D

There won't be 150 courses built this year.  There will be about 100, and maybe another 100-200 major remodels.  And yet, there are 400 of us trying to be gca's.

I know I have two new 18's, two new 9's and two major remodels coming up.  I also know that the top 10 architects (I will presume I am top 20-25) may control over half the work.  So, where do the other 375 architects make a living?

My gross revenues are half of what they were in the glory days.  Of course, my staff is less, but my paycheck has not gone up signifigantly, and there were a few years it went down.  In fact, in conversations with other gca's, if you listen carefully, many, many of us took on some debt for the privielege of staying in the biz after 9/11. I haven't heard any say they have antiques for sale to make up the revenue windfall, either!

A golf writer did a survey, and found that most lesser known gca'a are now having trouble paying themselves even $75K per year.

I think its always been a tough biz, with the decades of the 20's, 60's and 90's breaking the string and giving those of us in the biz a false sense of euphoria........ ::)

« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 02:27:07 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil_the_Author

Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2006, 02:46:04 PM »
Jeff, you asked two questions. "Did Tillie have any staff or an office to pay for?" and "Kind of odd by todays standards that he had an arrangement for someone else to pay taxes on the Harrington Park home, though.  Was he a renter, buyer, or lease to purchase kind of guy?"

As far as staff, he minimal or none most of the years he worked. The real exception to this was when he put his son-in-law, Harold Worden, to work as his field super & construction engineer in late 1928. He would stay with him for almost four years.

He did most of his drawings and kept a home office in Harrington Park after he moved there in 1927. It appears that his offices in Philadelphia & New York were small and used primarily as mailing addresses.

As far as whether he "Was he a renter, buyer, or lease to purchase kind of guy?" He was a renter. We don't know where he lived after he married in the early 1890's in Philadelphia. He may have owned the home he lived in in that area up until he moved in early 1920 to Menlo Park where he rented a house. This was nearby his friend Thomas Edison who he met when he did the Essex County CC where Edison was a non-golf playing member.

He moved into his house in Harrington Park in 1927, renting it until his landlord needed to sell it and bought it from him in 1930. His former landlord became his mortgage holder and so now Tilly built a second house on the property in which he settled the Wordens. They would move to Toledo sometime in early 1934 and he would move in with them after his heart attack several years later, and that was where he died.

It was his former landlord who messed up and cost them the house that they dearly loved more than any other place they had lived. This was also Tilly's fault as it appears he trusted the person completely and naively never demanded an accounting. This goes back to his very poor business skills.

Mike, all I meant with all of this personal Tilly info is that your original question asked about the dead guys ability to make a living from designing golf courses. I can't say about anyone other than Tilly and I know that he did and did quite well, though nowhere near the "millions" made and spent that some have very mistakenly written in the past.

Mike_Young

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Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2006, 07:13:36 PM »
Jeff,
I am with you...I have been fortunate to keep work and have actually got a couple of new 18's but I just don't know how a new guy gets in.....or how secure the business is for a second or third guy down in some of the firms.....

It's a goofy business.....if I just weren't so mediocre......I do think you will see more and more begin to manage their construction or sub contract it...whatever it takes to generate revenues.....truth be known many architects have always made their actual money on the construction of the project and with their construction arm but some don't consider it proper so it is not advertised much....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

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Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2006, 10:13:13 PM »
MacKenzie apparently did very well during most of his life, but he died penniless during the Depression, writing very plaintive letters to Clifford Roberts in a vain attempt to collect his fee for designing Augusta National.  Very sad.

David Lott

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Re:How many of the "Old Dead Guys" made a living out of architecture
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2006, 11:33:59 PM »
Bill Diddel!!

Bill Diddel made a lifetime living out of golf architecture, starting in the 1920's when work was plentiful, but being one of the few to keep working during the Depression and the immediate post WWII years. Diddel was one of the founding members of the Socy. of Golf Course architects, and a fine player--Indiana amateur champ five times in the first decade of the 20th Century.

He kept working when times were tough by taking nearly any assignment--munis (when munis were very unfashionable), military courses, and by staying largely local in Indiana and the midwest. He also bought a piece of land in Indiana before the depression and managed to hold on to it by farming and leasing it out during the lean years. He turned the property into a fine golf course in the 1950's, and when the subsequent owners planned to destroy the course and build a new one, Ben Crenshaw refused the assignment because he felt it was a desecration. The course was destroyed anyway.

Bill was president of ASGCA in 1954, and played well until he was nearly 90 years old. He shot has age over 1000 times, beginning at age 70, and died in 1984 at the age of 100.

For more on Bill Diddel, follow this link: http://ronkerngolfarch.com/bildidas.html


David Lott