The Brilliance of Ballyneal

[Jay Flemma]

He got it Paul...at the expense of reasonable playability.  Go play it and check ou the greens and let me know what you think.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

I stand by what I said -- put another "more favored designer name" on DR and the folks complaining now would be falling over themselves with compliments. It's so transparent.

Steve:

Point by point --

I played the tips at Sand Hills and if the overall yardage has changed since the time I played there -- it was just under 7,000 yards then please outline where the additional length at various holes has been added.

When you say green speeds were lower in 1996 -- how can you be so certain? I'll say this again -- you make it sound like I was doing full shoulder turns to get the ball to the hole. That's not the case at all. The greens were clearly in the 10-11 area when I was there.

On the subject of walking -- I value it and certainly applaud places for including it for people when playing. However, the issue of walking can be done at DR -- most people will avail themselves of carts so what's wrong with that ? I don't hold it against courses with carts -- provided the cart rides aren't so excessive that they then become the chief focal point when playing a said course. See Sanatluz in SoCal as an example of such excessive characteristics.

Steve -- my point on the issue of "narrow bunch" is that you seem to be leaning towards what those who have panned the layout are saying. How bout you simply hold your fire until you actually play it ? That's not much to ask for -- right ?

I'll be more than happy to provide my comments on both DR and SH on a different thread. Last I checked you have not played the former and only the latter. That does put you at a disadvantage and I would hate for you to only stress one course without first hand direct knowledge of the other.

One other thing -- Ballyneal is playing as easy now is it will likely play. Why do I say that? Simply. The turf conditions will mature and at the same time the overall consistency and speed will increase dramatically -- especially on the fairways and greens. When I hear people argue that Ballyneal is really easier to score on they fail to take this aforementioned item into consideration.

Last point -- I salute Sand Hills because of the ground it broke and for the kind of layout it is which is utterly unqiue and special. At the same time -- the world doesn't stand still and the competition is now moving into an area where Sand Hills alone has been the chief and only main golf option.

I do say this -- the emergence of Ballyneal, DR and other courses likely to come down the pike will only add to the zest of golfers to come to this special place in the USA. On
that -- I'm sure we can agree -- or is that point too presumptious on my part.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

You raised a key point and after checking with my notes I have found that when I played Sand Hills from the tips on August 31, 1996 the total yardage listed on the scorecard was 6,980 yds.

From information that I have gathered I see the total yardage from the tips has risen to 7,089 yds with added lengths at the following:

2nd hole (previous 418) now 458
4th hole (previous 449) now 485
5th hole (previous 387) now 412
9th hole (previous 371) now 402

*although on #17 I played the hole in '96 from 168 yds -- the new listing is 150 yds.

The total "new" length comes to just over 100 yards difference.

I appreciate your comments previously on what has happened since but given the fact that the total distance is not that great I would say the core elements of Sand Hills remains nearly the same as when I played it.

I'll post on a Ballyneal v Sand Hills thread shortly -- nonetheless, thanks for your comments because I wanted to explore this matter further.


Gents:

One other point on Ballyneal -- when people have opined the course is not that tough they fail to see the impact that faster and firmer fairways, along with putting surfaces, will cause when playing there. I see the course playing as easy it can be now -- the real speed will come when the turf matures and fills in.

[Tom Huckaby]

I'll post on a Ballyneal v Sand Hills thread shortly -- nonetheless, thanks for your comments because I wanted to explore this matter further.


Geez, Lincoln prepared the Gettysburg address in 100th the time it is taking you for this, Matt.

Enough already.  Spit it out.  It's clear from your previous comments that you're going to come out favoring Ballyneal over Sand Hills, and that's just fine.  You're not going to offend anyone with this preference.  Those who love Sand Hills know why they love it, and your opinions are not going to offend them.

I'd just ask that when you make your grand pronouncements, you do keep in mind what Steve is really warning you about:  and that is that you'll be comparing courses you've seen two weeks ago to one you've seen 10 years ago.  Sure Sand Hills might not have changed that much - although yardage is surely NOT the sole barometer of that - but YOU certainly have.  And no one's memory is THAT good either.

So go ahead, tell us why Ballyneal is superior to Sand Hills.  The world awaits.  And the world will go on after this decree has been issued.

 

[Steve Lapper]

Tom,

   Amen!!!

Matt,

   We do agree to disagree as often as we agree.    

I don't have it in for DR or JN and can hardly "pan" anything I have yet to see or play(said multiple times, btw). I said as much, just cautioning that IF there were impediments to healthy dose of ground game options and walking was unecessarily difficult, I would be disappointed and not quite as interested. The Sand Hills region and the nature of it's terrain are probably among North America's most favorable areas for such  and I would want to see those playing charcteristics preserved by ANY architect at any location set in that region.

If you read closely, I really thought quite well of Ballyneal and refered it's user-friendliness as well. However, you are once again off a considerble amount by making the statement that it plays as easily as it will ever likely. The immaturity, at present, of it's turf conditions (and this will change reasonably soon I'm sure) don't allow a great deal of the playability Tom's design affords! With rolling run-ups and swifter greens, better players (like you of course ) will have an easier time, not harder, providing of course, they are skilled and creative.

As for comparing all of this to SH, my point is 1000% vaild that despite the question of whether the tips are only 100yds longer or the bunker shapes have changed, you are going to rely on a 10yr memory as a reference point to a few weeks or month-long for a comparison.....no scientist, editorialist, cultural commentator or otherwise would be so foolish to not make great note of the possibility, and likely probability, that fundamental missives will occur. I know you have a "Steel Trap" for a cranium and "you just gotta be you," but caution is called for and wisdom remains elusive.

Lastly, a little know fact for you. Sand Hills was built in 1995 and was open for less than a year when you were there. Like most places built in the last 15yrs, green speeds are held back for the roots to deepen and gain resistance to disease and ruin.

The greens speeds, according to their members, their managing member, greenskeeper, and former and present head pros (all just a little more familar with the property than you or I) have said that the greens have become SIGNIFICANTLY faster over the last 5 yrs(over 3+ on the Stimpmeter to be precise)....so I have more than just anecdotal evidence that your notes/memory has already proved slightly flawed. As you are fond of saying......"hold on paaadner...you are off-base here"!!!

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Enough of the qualifiers - just play DR and then opine on it. You leaned towards the direction of those who said no ground game exists and that walking is flat out rejected -- both points made by those on that side of the aisle are wrong. Dead wrong. You know throw in "healthy" and "unncessarily" as two qualifies into the mixture.

Have to say this -- but you're all wet when it comes to the demands Ballyneal will present in the future. The turf now doesn't permit (because of drought like conditions) the speed and consistency on both the fairways and greens that will be forthcoming. Top players - even those of higher handicap types -- can hit drivers at the corners and know full well the ball will not run into the kind of trouble that additional firmness will provide. Ditto balls that can stop faster because the turf permits such plays. Softer condition today will gradually become more faster and scores will respond in kind.

Steve -- just a refresher in case you didn't know this -- softer conditions give players -- all types the wherewithal to control the ball much more so than faster and firmer conditions. Hence -- one can score better with the former and less so with the latter.  

The putting surfaces are rounding into shape nicely, but they are not especially quick and clearly over the course of time the challenge they will present will only become more challenging and as a result the player will have to increase their proficiency with all approaches. Skilled players will perform better than less skilled players but the suggestion you make that skilled players will be able to have an "easier time" is a big time stretch on your part. At minimum -- we agree to disagree on that point.

Steve -- FYI - Sand Hills opened in June 1995 -- I was there in August 1996. Last I checked that's more than a year's time difference -- unless you are using a new time schedule. As you said to me I turn back to you -- "slightly flawed" on your part.

One other note -- the green speeds I encountered were a good bit more than shoulder turn proportions - were they as fast as they are today? I can't speak to that directly but to imply that the additional speed makes me unable to speak to the qualities of the layout is a stretch. I listed the additional yardage distance but the 100 yards more is not enough to sway my mind about the core aspects of those holes being fundamentally altered. I will certainly look forward to a future round(s) at Sand Hills because it is indeed a very special place -- it's just that Ballyneal in my book is like the race horse Affirmed -- just ahead of Alydar / Sand Hills at the wire.

 
Huck:

For God's sake have some patience -- you already know the ending anyway and frankly my comments won't mean anything to people anyway who are already convinced.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Matt Ward

I for one appreciate your insightful analysis.  You have made an effort to play all three and you should be commended and given the benefit of the doubt in regard to your views.


I suppose Mr. Huckaby wants your comparison of all three to continue this fight in which you are the only person who has actually viewed all three courses.

Please understand you are dealing with a person though who at various times has touted Sand Hills.  I may be missing a few but in the past he has stated Sand Hills has the best:

1. Course
2. Logo
3. Place to relax and have a after-round drink
4. Place to have lunch
5. Hamburger
6. Spice on Hamburger
7. Pro Shop

and perhaps the one that trump's them all "practice range".

[Tom Huckaby]

Hammy:

You have most of that right.  I don't think I ever commented on the spice on the hamburgers, I've never really commented on the pro shop,  and all I ever said about the practice range was that it fits the place.  But in all of the rest, yep, Sand Hills is the best.  

What this has to do with the price of tea in China, well you tell me.

Hey, I too appreciate Matt's insightful analysis - that's why I keep asking him to quit stalling and spit it out.  In no way do I want to continue any fight - I want to know WHY a guy who's opinions I too value has found a course superior to the one I consider the best on the planet.  I also have some fun with back and forths with Matt and you can consider this friendly "tweaking."

That shouldn't be too tough to understand... For one who has friends, anyway.

 

To Matt - in all seriousness, I am interested in the comparison, as are many others here I'm sure.  It just is kinda funny how long it's taking too prepare.

[Steve Lapper]

I want to know WHY a guy who's opinions I too value has found a course superior to the one I consider the best on the planet.  I also have some fun with back and forths with Matt and you can consider this friendly "tweaking."

That shouldn't be too tough to understand... For one who has friends, anyway.

In all seriousness, I am interested in the comparison, as are many others here I'm sure.  It just is kinda funny how long it's taking too prepare.

Tom,

Leave him be for a few. He's very busy watching reruns, downing ginseng and trying to committ to memory, early Ron Whitten

[Jerry Kluger]

Have you guys ever sat on the deck outside of the bar at SH on a clear night - I ain't never seen so many stars in my entire life - didn't know there were so many up there.

[Tom_Doak]

Jerry:

I think the stars would be just as good at Ballyneal or Dismal River.  

They're pretty good in Tasmania, too, but they aren't all the same.

[Ron Farris]

I was in Hollywood once and didn't see a single star .
I grew up in the sand hills and I can tell you that indeed the stars are the same at Bally as they are at Dismal or SH.

[Adam Clayman]

The first time I had supper at Ballyneal,(dinner is lunch in these parts) with Rupert, John Kirk and the two California David's, I left there in the darkest dark I think I have ever seen/felt. The ride home was so Kubrickesque with Mozert just blasting on the stereo.(A Clockwork Orange scene on the dark rural roads.)

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: We were at Ballyneal the night after we stayed at SH and on this one I would have to give the nod to SH - stars were just better.

[Tom_Doak]

Jerry:

Must be the day you played.

[Tim_Weiman]

I'm quite happy to read all the positive feedback about Ballyneal, especially because I'll have the chance to see it for myself in a couple weeks.

It is especially interesting because I remember Rupert O'Neil once expressing concern to me that his site wasn't good enough.

Anyone care to guess what encouraged Rupert to say such a thing? Can you imagine where he might have been that provoked such a thought?

[Daryl David]

Tim,
I suspect it is just Rupert being modest.  He is such a nice guy and always trying not to appear to boastful about Ballyneal.  Deep down inside, I think he is like a kid on the biggest Christmas morning in history!

[RJ_Daley]

Tim, at Sand Hills GC?

[George Pazin]

Seeing as it's Tim, I'll guess Mr. O'Neal was thinking of the Cashen Course. Spectacular looking land doesn't always produce spectacular golf (at least, that seems the general consensus).

[RJ_Daley]

George, of course that must be it.  It Tim would spend a little more time here, I might have thought of the obvious...

[Tim_Weiman]

George:

You have the right country, but the wrong site.

Rupert's comment came at a place where a golf course has never been built, though permitting efforts have been underway for more than 15 years.

[Gene Greco]

Inch

[Tim_Weiman]

Gene:

You got it!

The conversation took place several hears ago when Rupert and I spent the better part of the day walking Inch....a place you really need a few days to see.

I keep hearing that Arthur Spring is making progress on the permitting issue, but after so many years it is hard to get too excited.

Having seen a few pictures of Ballyneal pre-construction, I felt a bit sorry for Rupert when he appeared overwelmed by Inch. But, that is just what Inch can do.....even if one has a great place to build a course like Rupert apparently has with Ballyneal.