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Kyle Harris

Bethpage Green
« on: August 24, 2006, 06:15:31 PM »
A small, trinkety golf prize to anyone who can name the hole and course.



Remember, looks can be deceiving.

One guess only, I'll respond on the thread when the correct answer is given.

I'll PM incorrect guesses with the correct answer. We're on the honor system here, boys (and gals!).
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 09:16:58 PM by Kyle Harris »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name the hole... (with prize, and then further discussion)
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2006, 06:16:55 PM »
Is it at the re-designed DuPont in Wilmington, DE?  14 perhaps?

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name the hole... (with prize, and then further discussion)
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2006, 06:37:21 PM »
PSU - White #9 or 18

Admittedly a wild guess.

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name the hole... (with prize, and then further discussion)
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2006, 06:51:19 PM »
Is this in Michigan?
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

peter_p

Re:Name the hole... (with prize, and then further discussion)
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2006, 06:59:23 PM »
Philmont North #9?

Dean Paolucci

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name the hole... (with prize, and then further discussion)
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2006, 07:04:50 PM »
Reading????
"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."  --  Mark Twain

wsmorrison

Re:Name the hole... (with prize, and then further discussion)
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2006, 07:31:45 PM »
Because it is you asking, I'll guess that it is Schuykill CC.  Whatever it is, the long fescue on the outside of the right bunker looks a bit out of place given the surrounds of the remainder of that bunker and the other one on the left as well as the grass height around the periphery of the hole.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 07:32:13 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Name the hole... (with prize, and then further discussion)
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2006, 07:48:40 PM »
Ok, I'm going to go way out on a limb here and guess that they changed the 17th hole at Medinah again.   :P

Kyle Harris

Re:Name the hole... (with prize, and then further discussion)
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2006, 08:13:38 PM »
Clues: Not in Pennsylvania, well known name

Here's the 18th green on the same course.


Dave Bourgeois

Re:Name the hole... (with prize, and then further discussion)
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2006, 08:44:41 PM »
That looks a lot like Bethpage Green #18.  Your first picture looks like the short par 4 on the front maybe #8?

Cheers,

Dave

Kyle Harris

Re:Name the hole... (with prize, and then further discussion)
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2006, 08:46:01 PM »
Dave has the right course, and even the right nine.  :)

Not the correct hole(s). The second picture is the 18th, though.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 08:46:33 PM by Kyle Harris »

Kyle Harris

Re:Name the hole... (with prize, and then further discussion)
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2006, 08:49:38 PM »
This is the 4th green on Bethpage State Park's Green Course, taken from the middle of the 5th fairways.

Here's the view from the tee (which is to the left of the picture):


Bethpage Green started as Lenox Hills CC designed by Dev Emmet. The course fell on hard times during the depression and was bought by the state as the starting course for the Bethpage complex. Tillinghast rerouted some of the Lenox Hills holes and designed a new 1st and 18th to link up with the Bethpage clubhouse. The 1st hole on the green is immediately to the right of the 1st hole on the Black and runs parallel.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 08:49:58 PM by Kyle Harris »

Kyle Harris

Re:Name the hole... (with prize, and then further discussion)
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2006, 08:53:41 PM »
More holes on Bethpage Green:

The extremely severe 2nd green


The small, bumpy 8th green


The 9th green as seen from the 10th tee above and behind


The 12th green with severe undulations indicative of a lot of the BSP Green Course's greens. This is a great green for a 291 yard par 4!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 08:55:00 PM by Kyle Harris »

Kyle Harris

Re:Name the hole... (with prize, and then further discussion)
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2006, 09:11:11 PM »
What is perhaps the most interesting thing about the Green course is the lack of anything off most of the tees. For the most part, the golfer is greeted with a strip of fairway.

However, the angles are still there and evident. On many holes being on the wrong side of the fairway leaves a less than desirable angle or shot, forcing play and making the hole play longer. This is especially apparent on the 7th, 8th, 9th, 12th, and 17th where little definition leads you into a sense of safety, but the correct side of the fairway (typically the outside of the dogleg) must be found.

The greens are another interesting thing, with lots of very small, subtle things happening in them and ample oppurtunity for hole locations to be difficult. The 2nd hole has a front to back severity that is not apparent in the photograph, and just carrying the cross bunker may be a better play than gunning for the flag as anything above the hole is moving and sliding in a hurry. The 16th green features a neat fallaway green that is semi-blind from the fairway.

The finishing hole is the second best on the property (behind the Red's 18th) IMO. At 400 yards to the green benched into the hillside the premium placed on the tee shot and approach is incredibly appealing. Anything on the right side of the fairway is semi-blind, and the left side must contend with the deep greenside bunker.

Hopefully, the restoration/renovation of the bunkers like the one near the 18th green and those on the Red Course will continue.

Now that I've played all of the Bethpage courses, I'd rank them as follows:
1a: Black Course
1b: Red Course
2a: Green Course
2b: Yellow Course
3: The Driving Range
4: Putting Green behind Black First Tee
5: Putting Green behing Green First Tee
6: Putting Green out front
7: Overnight Lot
8: Clubhouse
9: Blue Course

Matt_Ward

Re:Bethpage Green
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2006, 10:58:37 AM »
Kyle:

You're all wet if you believe the Blue Course is that low on the totem pole at Bethpage State Park.

The Blue's front nine is as good as any, minus either side of the Black's layout.

I've played the Green a bunch of times and while it should be salutes for what it does provide it's important to do go off the deep end and believe it's the next best thing to sliced bread.

The Green is a fun course to play but many of the holes are also lacking any serious architectural elements of consequence. I salute your enthusiasm for the course but from my side of the aisle I see it as being a bit over-the-top.

P.S. The Yellow is likely the botton of the five at Bethpage.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Bethpage Green
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2006, 11:22:27 AM »
Kyle,

Thanks for the stroll down memory lane!

By the way, I see you are still enjoying whatever loco weed you grow in Pennsylvania. The Blue is a wonderful course, far better than the Green & Yellow.

The second hole is a world-class par four. Six is almost as good followed by a fabulous par-three 7th, and a terrific risk/reward par-5 eighth. 12 is a wonderful short par-5 that one just has to always have a go at the green over the valley. 14-17 are all good holes.

You need to play it again, this time with your eyes open!  ;D

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Green
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2006, 12:02:09 PM »
Is the procurement of times at the Red, Blue and Green as difficult as the Black?

I was thinking some day of a weekend or such playing all four....
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Green
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2006, 12:20:03 PM »
Just a sidenote on some of Kyle's pictures: the photo of the 12th green complex is taken from the left-hand rough, about 30-40 yards out.  Play comes to the green from the right side of the picture, directly over the mounds and bunkers.  

The hole is 291 from the men's tees (only 2 sets of tees here, red and white)  

As recently as 2003, the mounds and bunkers in front of the green were much, much higher.  In fact, the green, and most of the flagstick, was blind from the landing area.  

I believe these mounds were reduced in-house sometime in late 2003 or maybe 2004.  When we went back for the Tillinghast outing in 2005 (held on the Red Course), we toured part of the Green and I noticed the mounds were reduced in size.  

Today, most of the flagstick is visible from the fairway.  

The large bunker to the left of 18 was changed into what it is now during this time as well.  Prior, it was large and rather nondescript, without the large finger in the center of it.    

The park has done some work on several other holes of the Green Course since 2003-2004, specifically reshaping bunkers and regrassing tees.  

None of these changes have helped pace of play, which is still atrocious at 5 hours (tee time was 11:40 on Wednesday)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2006, 12:22:51 PM by Douglas R. Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Chris Hughes

Re:Bethpage Green
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2006, 12:39:49 PM »
interesting observations Kyle.

I have yet to play the Yellow course but my rankings would be.

1a: Red
1a: Black
2:  Green.
Unranked: Blue

Red --> this course is starting to get the proper recognition relative to the Black...as evidenced by the fact that this year non-NY'ers now pay double the resident rate on the Red (they only used to do this on the Black).  I absolutely LOVE the Red course...to me it's all about what a great course in any era should be.  Pace of play varies pretty widely, but I try to get out by 8.30am at the latest.

The Red:
- goes out, and comes back...it's a loop.  
- the next tee is close to the last green.
- you never cross a road.
- you never see a house.
- there's not an OB stake on the whole course.
- the Red is a LARGE golf course...if you don't find it hard enough, just keep moving back.
- the Red is very fair to the player, good shots rewarded, bad ones are not.
- the Red is in great condition day-in day-out.

Black --> so much has been written about the Black, I won't rehash it.  Bethpage is my home facility and I play the Black and Red the most (followed by Green) and honestly if I had to choose one to play every day for the rest of my life it would probably be the Red over the Black (keeping in mind that both are FANTASTIC courses, and oddly I've played Black close to double Red this year).  Having said that, I think I'll keep my 10.36am on the Black tomorrow!  Pace of play is actually pretty consistent on the Black and I'll take anything before 12.00noon.

Black vs. the Red:
- Black is a loop too.
- twice you have to cross a road.
- you do see a few houses, cement plant, maintenance shop, etc...
- not much OB here either, only on right of 15 if I remember correctly.
- clearly the Black is a large course too, but plays a little tighter than the Red.
- a few shots on the Black pretty much border on unfair.
- the Black is also in great shape on a day-to-day basis.

Green --> I have really started to appreciate this course in the last year or so.  It is completely different than the Red or Black but is really a lot of fun to play.  Because I get to play them all regularly, at this point honestly I am ambivilent between playing the Red, Black and Green...but I can understand why others from out of the area would target the Black.  Green shorter, a bit more up and down the hills, oddly enough my perception is that it's in slightly better shape day-in day-out than Red/Black (but it's negligible).  Green more of a shotmaking exercise, whereas Red/Black require more ability to bomb it.  Main problem with Green is pace of play...the second hole has a very steeply sloped green and by 8.30am there will be a several group back-up on #2 tee.  If I can't get out before 7.15am on Green I won't play it.

Blue --> 9 and 18 are both terrible holes...this one turns at the clubhouse.  13 through 16 are pretty darn good holes, I like 'em a lot.  The rest are a mix of decent to good holes.  I've only played this one once in '06...it's worth a visit from time to time.

Yellow --> I hear short but nice.  Some people, long-time Bethpager's speak very highly of it.  I intend to get out there before the season ends.

ES

(for sake of perspective, my index is 8.1)

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Green
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2006, 12:47:42 PM »
Eric Stratton....damn glad to meet ya....

I used to think (as an outsider) that the other courses at Bethpage were not worth a look...but posts here have convinced me that they probably are all worth a look someday.  Just to get my NY resident (7 days adv!) friend to play more than just 18 in a day....
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Chris Hughes

Re:Bethpage Green
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2006, 01:04:15 PM »
Thanks!

I love the place...but truthfully, 36 holes in a day would be a tall order out there.  It's possible, but not probable.  

Best thing to do would be to get a 7.20am on Red and then a 1.30pm on Black.  Problem is that the first hour of times (6.12am to 7.12am) is reserved for walkups and for planning purposes this makes it very difficult.

On a weekday your chances of playing 36 would be MUCH better.

ES

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Green
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2006, 01:04:48 PM »
Eric Stratton....damn glad to meet ya....

I used to think (as an outsider) that the other courses at Bethpage were not worth a look...but posts here have convinced me that they probably are all worth a look someday.  Just to get my NY resident (7 days adv!) friend to play more than just 18 in a day....

Brad-

  It is feasible, I imagine if you tee of on, say, Red at 7:00 or whatever--finish up around 11 or thereafter.  

Maybe you and your friend could make one tee time each--say, one for 7:00 on Red, the other for, say 1:00 on whatever color you choose.  

  It is disheartening, though, when you see the groups waiting to tee off on Red #1 up and to the right of 18 green are numbering over 10.  Then you know it'll be a long, long, afternoon.
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Green
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2006, 01:09:56 PM »
Matt:

For me, the Green is the third best course there.  There are some bland holes there 9 and 17 for sure, but I do not feel that there are "many holes lacking serious architectural merit."  The real treat of the Green course are the green sites themselves, small and quite undulating.

Brad:

You are trying to play all four (Red, Blue, Green and Black) on the same day??  Good luck, I have yet to play the Black in faster than 5.5 hours during the week.  Unless it is raining, 2 to 3 on any day would be the limit.


Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Green
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2006, 01:14:41 PM »
A year ago, Kyle and I got in 36 on Red and Yellow, I think we went off sometime around 7:45ish on Red, finished up, ate, and went off Yellow sometime around 1 or 2, didn't have to wait there IIRC, finished with plenty of daylight, and had time enough to go to Umberto's in New Hyde Park for pizza!  

It can be done, although I wouldn't even dare think of a Red/Black double.  Yikes.  I think I'd need a stretcher after that!   :)
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bethpage Green
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2006, 01:30:21 PM »
I agree that it can be done, but it would have to be perfect conditions.  And Brad said he wanted to do it on a weekend.  I have played the Black and Green on the same day, but it was on a weekday.

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