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Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2006, 02:14:51 AM »
Jeff,
Exactly right.

Shivas,
Very interesting notion, defending against birdie. Maybe it's time to go to the notion of half-par again. Way back when par came in, some holes were rated par 4 1/2 or par 5 1/2. There are par 4s that really play as par 3 1/2s now.
Also like the notion of pro handicaps at plus-whatever. On TNT Saturday or Sunday, Bobby Clampett and Bill Kratzert went back and forth on this and then went back and forth more during a commercial break, Kratzert saying it was silly and Clampett defending the notion that the pros are so much better than par. He's right. As you note, Woods averaged 67.5 on a 78.1 rated course. You'd need a machine gun nest to defend against that.
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The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Jim Nugent

Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2006, 03:23:48 AM »
Jeff, it's not clear to me how TW and JN compare as power hitters in their prime.  I remember that first round Jack played with Tiger at ANGC, around 1995 or 1996.  He was stunned, and said afterwards Tiger would win as many Masters as he, Jack, and Arnie did together.  One reason was Woods' length: Tiger was hitting wedges into 15, on his second shot.  Jack could never have dreamed to do that, I think, no matter what the equipment.  And this was before the big changes to the ball, wasn't it?

I also remember last year at Baltusrol, Tiger was hitting 5 iron from nearly 230 for his second shot at 18.  Jack hit his famous 1 iron in 1967 on the same hole from no further than that.  

Curious to hear what others think.  

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JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2006, 11:03:48 PM »
The greens are running a little over 13.  They are hard....and fast.

The post-tournament analysis has been done......blame the PGA and PGA alone for the soft conditions.  THEY watered the shit out of the place....and had been all summer long.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2006, 11:05:09 PM by Ryan Potts »
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2006, 11:18:08 PM »
Shivas:

Absolutely, for the pros, a lot of holes are just hard birdie / easy par.  In fact some of them are not that hard of a birdie, the par fives especially.

But I still think you can build 3-4 holes a round which are hard pars, even for Tiger & Co.

As for computing Tiger's handicap for the week at +10.5, do you really think the course played to a 78 rating for a scratch golfer in those conditions?  I didn't see much of the event so I can't say, but my point is that the course rating is based on average conditions (wind, firmness, etc.), and everyone seems to be saying it was softer than for normal member play.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2006, 11:19:58 PM by Tom_Doak »
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ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2006, 12:12:32 AM »
Ryan,
   At 13 on the Stimpmeter can you actually try to make putts, or are you just in defensive mode the whole round trying not to 3 putt? Pasatiempo used to be like that 5 years ago, but now they have slowed the greens down to where they still command respect, but you can actually try to make putts.
    I am not trying to criticize, I am just curious about the greens at that speed.
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2006, 10:15:14 AM »
Uphill.....yes.  Downhill......no.

Moral of the story....keep it below the hole.
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2006, 11:37:11 AM »
ryan,

Ah, another Illini on the boards!  Maybe we will even have something to cheer about this football season.....

I just finished Sturart Bendelow's book on his grandfather, Tom.  While Tim Cronin's Medinah history speculates as to exactly how much Tom knew of the plans to have housing in the middle of No. 3 on "unavailable land", Stuart's book shows a Bendelow/American Park Builders routing from 1925 complete with land planning for the housing.

Apparently, we can add subdivision planner to Tom's resume, although Stuart implies that he had lots of engineering help during his APB days, and the land planning may have been done by others. Tom had to be involved, though.
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2006, 07:39:33 PM »
Jeff and Ryan

Another Illini here!

Just got the Bendelow book and am looking forward to reading it.

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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2006, 08:08:32 PM »
Ryan

Thanks for your help.


Oskee-wow-wow...


 ;)
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2006, 08:22:49 PM »
We should start a GCA book club where we exchange books that we liked with other members of this board.

Good idea?  Bad idea?
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mikes1160

Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2006, 10:36:58 PM »
Ryan Potts,

Has Tom Lively spoken to you about his working relationship with the PGA during the Championship? And is he communicating with you on these 13 Stimpmeter readings???
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ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2006, 11:34:14 PM »
Good idea Ryan. There are always books coming out that many never hear about.
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2006, 07:25:42 AM »
Quote from: Mike Scaletta on September 04, 2006, 10:36:58 PM
Ryan Potts,

Has Tom Lively spoken to you about his working relationship with the PGA during the Championship? And is he communicating with you on these 13 Stimpmeter readings???

Why?
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ForkaB

Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2006, 07:39:43 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on September 03, 2006, 11:18:08 PM
Shivas:

Absolutely, for the pros, a lot of holes are just hard birdie / easy par.  In fact some of them are not that hard of a birdie, the par fives especially.

But I still think you can build 3-4 holes a round which are hard pars, even for Tiger & Co.

As for computing Tiger's handicap for the week at +10.5, do you really think the course played to a 78 rating for a scratch golfer in those conditions?  I didn't see much of the event so I can't say, but my point is that the course rating is based on average conditions (wind, firmness, etc.), and everyone seems to be saying it was softer than for normal member play.

Tom

I'd bet you that for the average "scratch" player, Medinah played closer to 85 than 75 during the PGA.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again.  Scratch means squat except that you are significantly better than a 4 and even more signficantly worse than a +4.  I play off 6 and would be pleased as punch to beat Tiger on a PGA set up getting a stroke a hole.  As would Shivas and Tom D. and virtually all the people on this board.

We are all hackers, guys.  Let's get over this fantasy that we play the same game and the same courses as the pros.
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2006, 07:40:12 AM »
Quote from: Ryan Potts on September 04, 2006, 08:22:49 PM
We should start a GCA book club where we exchange books that we liked with other members of this board.

Good idea?  Bad idea?

Ryan,

Over the years, I have had several volumes of my golf library of friends, clients or employees.  I am reluctant to lend them to friends, much less strangers, even knowing I could "out" the perps here if needed.  While theft would be rare, the cost, pain and hassle of replacing a book just once would probably sour anyone on the deal.

Plus, many of the authors participate here, and I am sure they want more sales!
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2006, 08:05:34 AM »
Really bad idea.
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JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2006, 08:41:23 AM »
Quote from: Brad Klein on September 05, 2006, 08:05:34 AM
Really bad idea.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. ;)

Since I am not a golf course architect or a paid historian of the game, I usually read my book and then stick it in a box in the basement.  It is an injustice that no one else gets the chance to read them after I'm done.  I guess I'm not that possessive.....
« Last Edit: September 05, 2006, 09:04:25 AM by Ryan Potts »
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2006, 09:27:25 AM »
Ryan,

Two words - EBay sale!
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ceasefire on Medinah
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2006, 09:57:54 AM »
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on September 05, 2006, 09:27:25 AM
Ryan,

Two words - EBay sale!

Too much effort.  It is easier to stick them in a box and lug them from new house to new house. ::)
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