Could you build "another Old Course"?

[Darren_Kilfara]

Is there anything about the land upon which the Old Course sits that couldn't be replicated? I don't mean in exact terms...I mean the basic je ne sais quoi of humps, bumps and hollows, and the bunker locations to go along with them. In theory, you could create this sort of terrain with a few bulldozers and shovels on virtually any piece of flattish land, couldn't you? All you would need is a bit of imagination - well, quite a bit of imagination, but you certainly wouldn't need a massive construction budget. (Would you?)

Wouldn't you be VERY intrigued to play such a course? For that matter, I reckon a few people here at least would be plenty intrigued to try and design such a course if they thought it had a chance of being built on spec. I wonder why nobody has tried this before, with the possible exception of Nicklaus at Grand Cypress (and then only in a halfhearted manner)...

Cheers,
Darren

[Adam Clayman]

Darren, What was so half hearted in Orlando in 1987? Other than the routing, Each hole has the aspects you describe. Each hole can be fun to play. Wildly undulating greens on an open, low mowed field of play, with randomly scattered gathering bunkers. The berm is just as fake as the original. What shocked me about the effort was how Jack could go on to build the majority of his portofolio without much regard to these aspects. What a pity.

[Philippe Binette]

Hire a crazy shaper, let him go loose

then decide where you're going to put the greens by throwing darts on a topo map

and finally wait 400 years...

[Darren_Kilfara]

Darren, What was so half hearted in Orlando in 1987? Other than the routing, Each hole has the aspects you describe. Each hole can be fun to play. Wildly undulating greens on an open, low mowed field of play, with randomly scattered gathering bunkers. The berm is just as fake as the original. What shocked me about the effort was how Jack could go on to build the majority of his portofolio without much regard to these aspects. What a pity.

The end product at Grand Cypress isn't *nearly* as rollicking and interesting as the land in St. Andrews. I say it's halfhearted because they didn't really try to dig bunkers and shape the terrain by hand the way that so many good architects have been in the last 10 years. (I bet the Grand Cypress "New" course would have been much more interesting if it had been built in the past few years - even by Nicklaus - just because of where the industry stands these days. That said, it would still be in Florida...)

Cheers,
Darren

[Mike Nuzzo]

I'm trying... and getting closer every day.
It is very bumpy and wide, and hopefully not always easy.

Among many factors that have to go just right (super, owner, me...) I do have a shaper who has never seen or stepped foot on a golf course.
He has been fantastic.

I Hope to show it off one day.

[Tim Pitner]

Is there anything about the land upon which the Old Course sits that couldn't be replicated? I don't mean in exact terms...I mean the basic je ne sais quoi of humps, bumps and hollows, and the bunker locations to go along with them. In theory, you could create this sort of terrain with a few bulldozers and shovels on virtually any piece of flattish land, couldn't you?

From what I've read, it sounds like David Kidd has done a bit of this at St. Andrews No. 7.  

[BCrosby]

Darren -

Good question. I too like the "New" at Grand Cyprus. You got to give Nicklaus points for courage. It must have sounded like a very wacky idea back 20 years ago when he first proposed it.

For all its shortcomings the New is still one of my favorite courses in Florida. That's a pretty low bar, but nonetheless....

Why TOC hasn't served as a model for more Florida courses is beyond me. I suspect it has to do with developers who want lots of water holes.

Bob

[MargaretC]

My question is why try?

I love links-style courses, but why duplicate?  Study what makes links courses wonderful and design a course that fits the coastal land purchased.

Architecture is "art" -- when did copying become an art?

What am I missing here?

[Darren_Kilfara]

My question is why try?

I love links-style courses, but why duplicate?  Study what makes links courses wonderful and design a course that fits the coastal land purchased.

Architecture is "art" -- when did copying become an art?

What am I missing here?

For one, I'm only talking about copying the style, not the specific substance. For two, I'm not talking implementing this style of course on a good piece of coastal land - I'm talking about doing it on a flat piece of land pretty much anywhere (preferably somewhere that hard and fast conditions could be guaranteed). Does that answer your question?

Mike - cool! Look forward to hearing more about your project...

Cheers,
Darren

[cary lichtenstein]

It would be a nice additon to Bandon

[Doug Ralston]

From 14xx to 18xx there was St Andrews, and golf was hardly a bigtime sport [was anything?]. The someone began building NEW designs, and golf got interesting to people who didn't WANT to do the same thing over and over. If they could have duplicated exactly TOC everywhere they built new courses, do you think it woulda made golf like bowling? How dull!

Today, we have a vast variety in our game, which is it's blessing. Let us allow Great Old Courses to be Great Old Courses. If you have ideals about duplicating what is good, try the aluminum cam business. Notice how Coke and Bud come in identical containers? There is the business for you!

I personally am bored by sports like bowling, and tennis and such, where the goal is to be able to repeat exactly the 'winning formula'. Golf is spicy!

Doug

[Bill_McBride]

Darren -

Good question. I too like the "New" at Grand Cyprus. You got to give Nicklaus points for courage. It must have sounded like a very wacky idea back 20 years ago when he first proposed it.

For all its shortcomings the New is still one of my favorite courses in Florida. That's a pretty low bar, but nonetheless....

Why TOC hasn't served as a model for more Florida courses is beyond me. I suspect it has to do with developers who want lots of water holes.

Bob

Bob, you know the format in Florida - condos left, water right.  For variety, condos right, water left.  

I agree, the New Course is a lot of fun, much more fun than the North, South and East at Grand Cypress.  But it still doesn't play fast and firm so the experience is vastly different.

[Chris Perry]

It would be a nice additon to Bandon

You read my mind.

That long narrow strip of dunesland right beside the Trails would be ideal for an out and back with holes running alongside each other and sharing large green complexes. The only issues I see are the possible topo of the area, and it would have to start on the other side of Trails hole #1 and share the same clubhouse, unless you built another one on the other side.

Since the resort prides itself and has built it's image around the entire concept of 'British Isles golf", it's really the only thing it's missing right now, because none of the other 3 have shared green complexes.

Maybe we should have a referandum on plotting 18 holes there and see who comes up with the best design, just for poops and giggles. It'd be cool to have this "group" be responsible for the 4th (or 5th) course created at the resort, and hey, Tom's already here.  

[Tim Pitner]

It would be a nice additon to Bandon

You read my mind.

That long narrow strip of dunesland right beside the Trails would be ideal for an out and back with holes running alongside each other and sharing large green complexes. The only issues I see are the possible topo of the area, and it would have to start on the other side of Trails hole #1 and share the same clubhouse, unless you built another one on the other side.

Since the resort prides itself and has built it's image around the entire concept of 'British Isles golf", it's really the only thing it's missing right now, because none of the other 3 have shared green complexes.

Maybe we should have a referandum on plotting 18 holes there and see who comes up with the best design, just for poops and giggles. It'd be cool to have this "group" be responsible for the 4th (or 5th) course created at the resort, and hey, Tom's already here.  

Chris,

I think the land to which you refer is environmentally protected.  I'm sure someone knows more about this than I, however.  

[PThomas]

wasn't Jack hired to build a replica of TOC in Japan many years ago??

[Chris Perry]

Chris,

I think the land to which you refer is environmentally protected.  I'm sure someone knows more about this than I, however.  

Figures.

Oh well, back to the parcel beside Pacific I guess.

[mike_beene]

Didn't a number of Augusta greens start that way?Wasn't 7 at one time a copy of 18?Isn't 4 an Eden inspiration?

[BCrosby]

Yes, ANGC up until WWII played hard as a rock. Several players commented on how much softer it became in the late '40's and how the new watering made it a differenct course in many ways. I've never found anything written about the rationale for the maintenance change. But it was noticed by Nelson and Snead, as I recall.

Perhaps it was just coincidence (I honestly don't know) but the softening of ANGC occurred about the same time RTJ was making his changes in '48.

Bob

[mike_beene]

Is that when the bunkers were added to 7 and the green raised or moved?Is 14 based on a particular Old Course green?

[Tom_Doak]

Darren:

We may well try to do something like that someday.

We have been working on Scottish-style bunkers on the property adjacent to Muirfield for the past four months.  At first I was really concerned that we'd have a hard time getting the style of pot bunkers to look authentic, because we've never done anything like them before.  But after a month of living in Scotland and practicing it, the Renaissance crew has gotten them down.  One shaper goes through and creates a bunch of small contours and features, and then another (mostly Bruce Hepner at Archerfield) comes back and digs a small bunker into the larger hollow.  I can't believe how good they look.

We will bring this technique back to the States one of these days when we find the right project.  Mark my word.  They may not be as photogenic as the bunkers at Pacific Dunes, but for the golfer walking the course, they are a work of art.

[Patrick_Mucci]

My question is why try?

I love links-style courses, but why duplicate?  Study what makes links courses wonderful and design a course that fits the coastal land purchased.

Architecture is "art" -- when did copying become an art?

What am I missing here?

Charles Blair MacDonald, Seth Raynor and Charles Banks.

After all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

And, if a template hole functions so well in interesting, challenging and entertaining the golfer, why doom it to but one location ?

Why not make it accessable to more golfers.

It's a formula that worked well for those guys and golf in America.

[SPDB]

You need wind.

McD/Raynor's template holes work so well because they are more subtle than mere replicae.  

[Darren_Kilfara]

We have been working on Scottish-style bunkers on the property adjacent to Muirfield for the past four months.  At first I was really concerned that we'd have a hard time getting the style of pot bunkers to look authentic, because we've never done anything like them before.  But after a month of living in Scotland and practicing it, the Renaissance crew has gotten them down.  One shaper goes through and creates a bunch of small contours and features, and then another (mostly Bruce Hepner at Archerfield) comes back and digs a small bunker into the larger hollow.  I can't believe how good they look.

There's something oddly fascinating about the mental picture I have of your shapers digging a bunch of holes in the ground just to practice making 'em look right.

Patrick is right, by the way - there's outright copying (like the "Tour 18" concept), and there's stylistic borrowing. The former is plagiarism; the latter is art.

Cheers,
Darren

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom D,

Are the Scottish-style bunkers you're building at Archerfield, sod wall bunkers?  They are the most prevalent kind I've seen on my several trips to Scottish links courses.

Sod wall bunkers don't look particularly natural to me (although their settings often do).  From what I've read about how they rebuilt the Road Hole bunker, it was far from natural.  However, I love those bunkers and they do present a hazard unlike almost anything in North America.  They have an added benefit - they're democratic, pros and ams alike suffer the same penalty if they get near the wall.  Nobody enjoys an advantage if they have to go sideways or backwards.

What's the difficulty in bringing the style to North America?  Drainage?  Florida probably wouldn't be that great a place to try them.  Or any clay-based site.

[ForkaB]

Tom D

When I watched the ground staff rebuilding a few bunkers at Dornoch, a couple of years ago, I was surprised to see that they laid the clumps of sod well below the point where the sand was going to be, in a sort of stair-step pattern.  My guess was that this was to indirectly stabilize the slopes of the sand within the bunker.  Are you doing something of this ilk at TRC?

Rich

PS--please tell me that the word "photogenic" in your post was just a joke and not a design principle........