[Tim Pitner]

If it's the case that you must play St. Andrews several times to appreciate it, should one skip it rather than playing it once?  

I'm not talking about a bus tour here, but suppose one plans a 10 day (or so) trip to Scotland, wants to cover some ground, maybe including the East coast plus the Highlands, and hopes to play some likely favorites (North Berwick, Dornoch) more than once, but probably won't be able to get on TOC more than once.  Should TOC be left out, perhaps seen but not played?

Tim,

Of course not!  Unless your list of things to do before you die includes "totally understand the Old Course" the experience is just too good to pass up.  Maybe even if it is on your list, it sounds like your presumption is that you might never get back, so like for anyone else, your first Scotland trip is an "experience" trip first and foremost anyway, no?

Jeff, thanks for your response.  Of course, I'd like to think that I have several golf trips to Scotland in my future, but one never knows.  There are a lot of other golf and non-golf trips to be made.  I guess my concern is that I might have to devote 2-3+ days to St. Andrews to get on TOC and then, if I don't enjoy the course or experience that much, I will have missed out on golf elsewhere (which might not be as "inscrutable").  

Am I crazy or talking sense?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Well, first off, you will enjoy the course.  There is nothing saying that your learning process can't start the first round, or that you can't enjoy the course just because you (and the rest of the golfing world) don't fully understand it.

If you are going the lottery system route, rather than pre-booking with a tour guide, you have a real pickle on your hands.  I think I would somehow assure my self of a tee time at the old course, even if it meant kidnapping someone right off the tee, stuffing them in a car and dumping them somewhere.  Hey, you could blame the IRA or something!

I think most folks stick to the Open rotation the first trip, sprinkle in a few other well known courses om the second trip, and allow themselves some time for the lesser known, but not lesser pleasures of some other courses on subsequent trips, while keeping a few of their favorite standbys in the rotation.

[Wayne_Kozun]

No one who is serious about golf should ever pass up the chance to visit St Andrews.  If you are there for a few days you should get on to the Old Course.  If not there is always the New Course and Jubilee or Kingsbarns.  But you should also visit the graveyard and see Young Tom's grave and Allan Roberton's and Old Tom, etc.  You will see names that you have likely read about - Kirkaldy, Tate, Anderson, etc.

The first time I visited I couldn't play because the Dunhill Cup was on, but it was still a surreal experience.

So I got that goin' for me, which is nice

[Bob_Huntley]

Phil,

I daresay that as a member of the R&A I have had the good fortune to play the Old Course more than most. I have played a goodly number of the great courses in the world and I must say that when playing TOC I find myself thinking where would I rather be than here.

If the weather is particularly vile I think of Pebble Beach, Cypress Point, NGLA, Fishers Island and MPCC. If it is benign I cannot think of anywhere else I would rather be playing the game.

This is the ne plus ultra of golfing nirvana. Nothing else compares.

Your old curmudgeon,

Bob Huntley

[Doug Siebert]

Just a slight change in wind direction or speed - or even the tide going in or out - could make a huge difference to how each hole played.

This is very interesting, could you explain what you mean by this?  I've never heard of the tide going in or out affecting how TOC or any other golf course plays!

[Jon Wiggett]

Doug,

there are several examples in scotland where when the tide is out you can play it from the beach but when the tide is in your ball finds a watery grave. North Berwick #2 springs to mind but I think Mark probably means that the wind often turns with the tide.
I was lucky enough to play the Old Course on many occasions during the 80's and 90's. It is without doubt the best course I have played.

[ForkaB]

Doug

The winds often change with the tides on links courses.  For out and back routings (like TOC) this could mean hitting into the wind for all 18 holes.

As for the question, Sean has it right.  As a golf ocurse, the Old Course can be underwhwelming, particularly if you are playing from the front tees and the pins are in benign places (both of which are highly possible for the visitor).  Nevertheless, you absolutely must see it once (like Venice) before you die.  It is a one off.

As for studying and learning about the course, this you can do too, but unless you are an architect or GCA anorak with a lot of imagination and a more than passing understanding of physics, you are going to be confused rather than enlightened for a long, long time.......

Bob Huntley would like TOC because he gets to play it with fellow R&A members from the middle tees with the course set up to challenge the player rather than to try to prevent 5-6 hour rounds.  If he had to go into the ballot, or wait for 4-5 hours on the 1st tee only to be paired with three dentists from Yokahama, he might feel differently.

Bob is right though in saying that when the weather in Scotland is at its best (as it has been for most of the past 2 months) there is nothing approaching the feeling you get playing the great links in the world of golf.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

The tide - yes, the wind often changes direction with a change of tide, but my brother in law, who grew up in St A's and played most of his early golf on the various St A's courses, also reckoned that the amount of break on a sloping green varied with the state of the tide.  I'm not a good enough player to be able to comment on that.  

There's a similar phenomenon in cricket.  I've heard it said by the Test Match Special people that if you play on a course close to the sea the amount a ball will swing in the air depends upon the state of the tide.  I think it might have been in connection with the sussex ground at Eastbourne, but I may be wrong.

[cary lichtenstein]

Underwhelming by the old course...how can that be

[ForkaB]

Cary

If you have to ask that question, you may be never be able to know the answer......

[Mark_F]

Isn't the fact that, if the pins are in benign places it may be underwhelming, indicative of its weaknesses?

There are obviously more difficult and less difficult pins on many greens, but surely there is a greater disparity on TOC than many other places?

[Jason Shanks]

Tim,

My first trip to Scotland was this past May.  I too had read myriad accounts of golfers being underwhelmed or disappointed about their first round on TOC and was concerned I might come away with similar sentiments.  Frankly, after playing the TOC (one round only) I don't understand how they could possibly be disappointed.  From the moment I stepped to the first tee until I putted out on 18, I found that the course kept me engaged.  I thought it was beautiful, quirky, strange, and amazing all at the same time.  

Granted, I was fortunate enough to play with a "local" which made the experience that much sweeter.  Nevertheless, I think I would feel the same way had I not been so fortunate to play with someone who knew the course as well as our companion did that day.

Do I understand all the subtleties and nuances of the TOC?  Of course not...and I probably never will.  But for me, that only adds to the mystery and allure.  I think there would be a big hole in any Scotland golf agenda that does not include TOC.  I am aching to get back (any ideas how to convince my non-golfing wife that Scotland should be the destination of all future family vacations?).

One bit of friendly advice: if your schedule in Fife allows, consider playing a round or two at Elie Golf Club House.  While certainly not the best course we played in Scotland, it ranked very high on the pure fun scale.

Have a great trip.

-Jason

[ForkaB]

Jason

I played in a tournament at Elie this weekend and it was beyond cool.  Playing almost perfectly fast and firm (there was rain the night before which slowed things down a wee bit), with 4 fall-away greens (6,9,10, and 15) that would make any at Oakmont look flat as pancakes (are there any at Oakmont where your second has to be played at an 80 degree angle to a point on the fall line 60 yards short of the green?), and a routing (2 3's and 16 4's) that makes you wonder where in hell you are going to ever have a chance at birdie, and pins set in evil places on just about every green, what else could the average GCA masochist want!

[Jason Shanks]

Rich,

Couldn't agree more.  Elie was the first course we played after a night of sleep in Scotland (we actually played Lundin Links right off the plane).  When we lfirst ooked at the scorecard, those in our group openly thought, "this course is short and should be an easy introduction to links golf" (typical American thought I am sure).  By #6, our collective opinions were drastically revised!  While a wonderful introduction to the links of Scotland, it was anything but easy.

I think my favorite hole was #13, which I understand is rumored to be one of Braid's favorites as well.

-Jason

[Mike_Cirba]

I posted the following a few years back.  I thought it bore repeating, and isn't repeatedly boring.  

I've been fortunate to have played The Old Course, and the Eden hole, exactly once.

It was a 50 degree day in July, with a steady 35mph wind whipping the rain sideways.  Umbrellas were useless, and we were cold-soaked to the core.

As a single, I was able to join with a pair of Americans from the deep south, and another single from San Francisco.  We played "out" directly into the wind and I can't say we weren't tempted to play sheep and dig us some bunkers to evade the elements.  Our stout caddies in tow, we proceeced onward in some type of hellish ecstasy, caught somewhere between hypothermia and Endorphin-stimulated runner's high.  

When we reached the 11th, the fellows from the south looked at each other and decided to turn back for shelter.  My new friend from San Francisco, who was evidently as golf-crazed as I am, looked at me with panicked eyes and shouted to be heard, "You're going to keep playing aren't you?", with some pleading in his voice.

I surveyed the situation as if I were actually contemplating giving up, held up my hand to the wind, and smiled slowly.  "I can't get any colder or any wetter...of course I'm going to finish", I replied.

Looking at the green in the foggy distance, it seemed to be an impenetrable fortress, the scant 165 yards looking to be miles long into the gale.  He struck first, and his ball ended up careening directly into the fronting pot.

I took a 3-iron, made solid contact, and my low screamer just got over the bunker's edge and onto the front of the putting surface, the seeming impossible hole cut another 40 feet further to the back right of the green's surface.

Elated, we braced ourselves and skipped forward.  After taking a picture of him trying to extricate himself from the depths of Strath, I climbed the slope and studied the severely uphill sloped putt I was left with.

With the wind whipping my pants legs, I took the putter back to what seemed to be hip-high, and struck it smoothly.  The ball never deviated from it's path, and when it got to within 10 feet, I knew it had a chance.  At the speed it was going, it had to be pure to fall, but suddenly, there in the mist, the fog, the wind, the rain, the chill, my ball disappeared from view.

To this day, I never recall having such a reaction on a golf course.  I let out a tribal shriek, something from deep in my soul, something akin to a therapeutic primal scream, and we laughed like children and joyfully made the turn towards that ancient town.

[Gene Greco]

Bob Huntley would like TOC because he gets to play it with fellow R&A members from the middle tees with the course set up to challenge the player rather than to try to prevent 5-6 hour rounds.  If he had to go into the ballot, or wait for 4-5 hours on the 1st tee only to be paired with three dentists from Yokahama, he might feel differently.

Rich:

   Do you think his feelings would change if he waited and played with their nubile dental assistants? Or would that change only YOUR opinion?

          Gene

[ForkaB]

Gene

The trouble with Japanese dentists is that their assistants are old and haggard.  "Young and nubile" is just not in the JDA handbook.

[Mark Pearce]

Jason

I played in a tournament at Elie this weekend and it was beyond cool.  Playing almost perfectly fast and firm (there was rain the night before which slowed things down a wee bit), with 4 fall-away greens (6,9,10, and 15) that would make any at Oakmont look flat as pancakes (are there any at Oakmont where your second has to be played at an 80 degree angle to a point on the fall line 60 yards short of the green?), and a routing (2 3's and 16 4's) that makes you wonder where in hell you are going to ever have a chance at birdie, and pins set in evil places on just about every green, what else could the average GCA masochist want!

I too think Elie's a great course.  We had a fortnight holiday there recently and I played every day either with friends (three times), in competitions (a two week pass gives temporary membership and access to some club competitions) or on my own, first thing in the morning (literally, often teeing off at 6.30 to be back in time to spend the day with the family).  

It demonstrates everything that's good about links golf.  Quick, true greens, the need to use the ground game and the effect the wind has on the course.  The fall away greens you mention are excellent holes, each in a very different way.  6 looks like it should be a birdie hole but just getting the ball on the green is a major problem.  9, for most of the time I was there, played into the wind and required something like driver, 4 iron into that green.  On one particularly windy day I hit driver, 3 wood and was short.  The next day, with the wind turned around I was through the back with driver, wedge.

As to birdie holes, 7 and 10 offer good chances and 5, 10, 15 and 18 are holes that should offer chances.  A couple of members I played with a few times suggested that 2 is a birdie chance.  Frankly, I couldn't make myself hit driver and even with a wedge in that's a difficult hole to judge the approach with such a steep rise to a skyline green.

13, to my mind, is a great golf hole which would not be out of place on any of the great links.  I also think 3 is a fascinating par three, steeply downhill, 212 yards (or whatever it is), OOB behind the green and a steep slope right to left.

[Bill_McBride]

I have been to St. Andrews twice.  I walked the Old Course on Sunday evening and played the next morning at 6:30 with my brother and two desperately hung over caddies, in May 2004.  In July 2005 I returned for the Open.

In both cases it was not like my first visit ever.  I read about the course comprehensively and have studied the map (MacKenzie's) for years, even now it is on the wall of my office.  The caddies were amazed that I knew the names of all the bunkers and tested me once they sobered up.  I explained to my brother and the caddies Dr. MacKenzie's three or four routes home on the Long Hole.  I generally made an ass of myself, but boy did I love my tours of the Old Course, and cannot wait to return.

Bobby Jones hated the course at first but grew to love it.  The first time he saw it, Sam Snead is reputed to have asked, "Where is the golf course?"

I do love Bobby Jones' extemporaneous talk during the ceremony where they gave him the key to St. Andrews and made him an honorary citizen, words to the effect that if they took away everything he did in the rest of his life but the time spent at St. Andrews, he would have still lived a full and wonderful life.

I'm getting all teary eyed here, and it's getting on to cocktail time.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Sam Snead actually said on the train ride into town

"What's that old abandoned golf course over there"

reportedly answered by a Scot seated nearby

"I'll have you know, sir, that "THE OLD COURSE"!


Abandoned, Snead said
before he knew what she was
then won the jug there.

"Back home, they wouldn't plant cow beets on land like that" - Sam Snead

[Jason McNamara]

There's a similar phenomenon in cricket.  I've heard it said by the Test Match Special people that if you play on a course close to the sea the amount a ball will swing in the air depends upon the state of the tide.  

Can a slicer hit a hook by digging his fingernails into a Pro V1?  

Jason

[ForkaB]

Sam Snead actually said on the train ride into town

"What's that old abandoned golf course over there"

reportedly answered by a Scot seated nearby

"I'll have you know, sir, that "THE OLD COURSE"!


Abandoned, Snead said
before he knew what she was
then won the jug there.

"Back home, they wouldn't plant cow beets on land like that" - Sam Snead

"It's not even in the top 100 courses in Fife!" - Lee Westwood

[ForkaB]

There's a similar phenomenon in cricket.  I've heard it said by the Test Match Special people that if you play on a course close to the sea the amount a ball will swing in the air depends upon the state of the tide.  

Can a slicer hit a hook by digging his fingernails into a Pro V1?  

Jason

Only with a lot of pain.....

.......that's what was so great about balatas.

[Bill_McBride]

Does anyone remember putting Vaseline on the face of a wood driver to "minimize spin?"  I recall this happening in a scramble group in about 1985, wonder if there's anything to it.  Illegal of course even if it did work!

[Dave Collard]

I have never been to Scotland but some of my friends who have are less than complimentary about the Old Course.  Take away the history and there's not much to the course.  I reread Ran's review before starting this thread and he obviously disagrees, although even he admits it takes some getting used to, a sentiment that Bob Jones shared.  

Take away the setting, the club house and the history, is the Old Course a great golfing experience?  

Hell, I liked it so much when I played it (for the first time)
in 2004, that I went to the starter and was actually able (lucky) to get on and play it again (and pay the exorbitant fee) in the afternoon!

Increase enjoyment of first-time at TOC:
  - Get a good caddie
  - Study the course ahead of time
  - Walk the course on a Sunday when nobody is
    playing (closed for play).

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