another ruling -- trip kuehne

[Phil McDade]

Anyone watching the US AM and familiar with Hazeltine? Trip shanked his second into the lake on the famed 16th from 134 yards out, but chose to play from where he hit his original shot, vs. what the announcers said was two clublengths from where it crossed the hazard. What's the rule here? If he can play from the original spot, can't he simply walk back on a direct line from where it entered the hazard? And wouldn't that put him closer than the 134 yards of his original shot? He wasn't totally out of the hole, considering his opponent kind of butchered the hole himself. Just wondering if Trip could've given himself a slightly better/shorter shot into the green.

[JohnV]

The lake is a lateral water hazard at the point at which he entered it.  He had 3 viable options.  He could have played from where he played the previous shot (Stroke and Distance) which is what he did, he could have dropped within 2 club lengths of where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, or he could have kept that point between himself and the hole and gone back as far as he wanted.  I don't think he particularly cared at that point since he knew he had lost the match so he just dropped one there.

[John_Conley]

Anyone watching the US AM and familiar with Hazeltine? Trip shanked his second into the lake on the famed 16th from 134 yards out, but chose to play from where he hit his original shot, vs. what the announcers said was two clublengths from where it crossed the hazard.

You've described this as a shank.  Without knowing his position in the fairway and how bad the shot (lateral?), it sounds like the option of going back on a line could give him a real bad angle.  Trees.  Wrong line to the green.

[Paul Payne]

Knowing a little bit about that hole I am not so sure that wasn't a smart move that trip made.

For one, I'd probably wan't a little more distance on my shot to hold the green better. But more importantly, the areas around the edge of the lake are very soft mormally. With the storms that blew through last night, my bet is that anywhere within about 10 yards of the shore would be VERY mushy ground.

[Phil McDade]

Well, it sure looked like a shank from the blimp-cam, and Dottie Pepper right away said: "He shanked it."

I was curious about the hole -- he seemed to decide pretty quickly to hit it from the same spot, rather than walking up to where it entered the lateral, and then walking back. The announcers, before his first shot, alluded to a shelf on the backside of the green that they assumed he might want to play off of; I just assume that shot is somewhat easier from 100 yards than 134 yards. But, again, I'm not very familiar with the course, and don't know if where he originally played the shot -- and replayed his 4th -- was the ideal location. And I'd argue he wasn't totally out of the hole, or the match. Two down on the 16th, if he stiffs his 4th shot, and makes bogey, he at least forces his opponent to hit a couple of very good shots to win the hole and the match. As it was, Kuehne came somewhat close to sinking his chip (5th shot), and conceded a bogey putt to his opponent for the match.

[Tom Roewer]

From my perspective it did not seem possible for him to keep the last point that his ball crossed the hazard line between him and the hole.

[TEPaul]

Phil McDade:

Just remember you are always permitted to play stroke and distance under the Rules of Golf.

The reason why becomes pretty obvious when one considers the basic priniciple on penaties outlined in Tuft's "Principles Behind the Rules of Golf" which states;

"The Penalty must not be less than the advantage (which) the player would derive from the particular (Rule) violation".

[Phil McDade]

TEPaul:

Thanks for that reminder...you're right. He just seemed to play his 4th shot awfully quickly (given the circumstances of the match), and the announcers weren't helpful, as they didn't fully explain the lateral hazard rule which (I presumed) was the case with this particular shot. Without that, I thought there might be some unique local rule with that particular hole, which wouldn't have allowed him to go back on his line. Still curious, from those who know the course, whether he could've placed himself any closer to the hole and still have a lie in the fairway. The shank looked to be (admittedly, this is a quick judgement) about 45 degrees off line, and he was in the middle of the fairway when he hit his 2nd.

[JohnV]

Phil, remember the "line" you keep mentioning is not the line the ball took on the way from his shot to the hazard, but the extension of a straight line from the flagstick to the point where it crossed the edge of the hazard.  This would be back in the heavy rough.  There was no fairway he could have dropped on in that case so I'm not sure why he would want to drop it there.

[TEPaul]

"Still curious, from those who know the course, whether he could've placed himself any closer to the hole and still have a lie in the fairway."

Phil McDade:

I don't know whether your mentioning fairway is something that's any concern of yours regarding relief situations from some situation like perhaps the one you described but if so you should also know that the Rules of Golf in relief situations make no distinction between fairway area or any other area defined as "through the green" which is all areas of the golf course other than tees and greens and hazards.

[Phil McDade]

John and Tom:

Thanks again for clarification. My main interest in this was the way Trip decided very quickly to play his 4th shot, and whether under the lateral hazard rule he could have given himself a somewhat shorter (and thus easier) shot (presumably from the fairway). Granted, obviously, a 134-yard shot from the fairway into that green is certainly much easier than any shot from the rough, and maybe he made that decision without taking a cursory look at his circumstances. He just seemed to reload very quickly; I've seen other folks in televised tourneys at least take a quick walk to see what their position would be, before deciding where to play from. Thus, my wondering about a local rule(s) vs. the traditional rules for such a shot. Thanks for your help on clarifying this.

Back to architecture -- the 16th at Hazeltine sort of reminds me of the 10th at the Belfry -- the one hole of distinction on a course that holds a lot of important tournaments. Can't recall too many other holes at Hazeltine that stand out.

[Paul Payne]

Phil,

You are right. many of the holes at hazeltine are good solid ones but not many will stand out in your mind as great.

To answer the question of position on 16 here is the deal. As I said earlier, during wet conditions (which we had) the shoreline can be very wet and sloppy, probably within 10 yards of the shore. It may appear as solid fairway but it is not when it has been wet.

The shape of the hole places the green on a small penninsula. 130 yards is about where the fairway turns for real and narrows out into the tip. My thought would be that any ball very far left, right, or even long, is going to offer a very marshy lie on the drop.

I didn't see the play, but Im not sure there would have been many better options.

[John_Conley]

Sheesh, I'm not a big Hazeltine fan, yet I find myself defending it whenever there's a tournament of note.  A lack of standout holes?  I guess we have different tastes.

#6 is a cool dogleg par 4, a prelude to my favorite hole that comes later.

#8 and #17 are excellent par 3s.  The former shows that a hole doesn't have to be 200 yards or more to challenge the best players in the world and the latter is one that serves as a reminder that no score is safe.  You'll have to play a great shot to earn par here.  If I recall, it was Simpson's demise on both Sunday and Monday.

#10 is one of my favorite par 4s anywhere.  That approach downhill to the lake is pretty.  

#16 is 16 and #9 and #18 are rugged reminders that this is a brutish championship venue.  It has been since Lee Trevino sang its praises upon opening and it remains that today.

Belfry-ish?  I suppose you can say that because it is a formerly nondescript prairie site.  What lies there today is a testament to Totten Heffelfinger's dream of one of the world's great tournament venues.  Obviously it lacks the pedigree of courses from the Golden Age.  It is, however, chosen over and over by golf's ruling bodies (Minnesota Golf Association, NCAA, USGA, PGA of America) to host their marquee events.

If you want to compare something with Belfry, I believe Valhalla is the choice.  Hazeltine National isn't just liked by the PGA of America; the USGA has used it many times and may continue.

[Paul Payne]

John,

I agree in general, I don't like to be too negative on Hazeltine although I think it may be overrated on the top 100 lists.

I do however think it has some very good holes that tend to get overlooked. In particular, you pointed out the par 3 #8. I think that is a stronger hole than #17 which seems to get more recognition. If there is wind #8 can be damn near impossible, and if you bail out left you have a horrific look at a chip, downhill fast to the water.

There are a lot of other good holes out there, #10 as you mentioned, and even the short par 4 #7. I like that one for the approach and the protected green again sloping towards the water.

In the end however, I still don't think it becomes a real memorable course for most people who play there.

[John_Conley]

#7 has played as a par 4 when it is a par 71 configuration, but at something like 410 I don't consider it short.  Lately I've seen it more as the three-shot par 5 like it is this week.  Do you mean a different hole?

Seems like we agree on Hazeltine.

[Paul Payne]

Is 7 that long?

I am not a regular out there but I've played there a dozen times or so. I thought #7 was; narrow drive out to a sharp dogleg left. Need to play from center of bend to far side to avoid being cut off by trees. More a 3 wood than driver. Second shot is to a kidney shaped green protected in front by a pond. The bailout is a small opening on the right front of the green. Behind the green is pretty much all surrounded by a small hill making a long shot a difficult recovery.

If I have the hole right it may seem to play shorter. Also we do play the member tees not the tips. I'm not sure what the difference would be.

John,

It just dawned on me during my typing. I am thinking of #6. #7 is the par five lined on the right by the oak tree "jailhouse". Dangerous to shave too much off the corner.

My mistake.

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