[Phil Benedict]

I have never been to Scotland but some of my friends who have are less than complimentary about the Old Course.  Take away the history and there's not much to the course.  I reread Ran's review before starting this thread and he obviously disagrees, although even he admits it takes some getting used to, a sentiment that Bob Jones shared.  

Take away the setting, the club house and the history, is the Old Course a great golfing experience?  

[Chris Kane]

I have never been to Scotland but some of my friends who have are less than complimentary about the Old Course.  Take away the history and there's not much to the course.  I reread Ran's review before starting this thread and he obviously disagrees, although even he admits it takes some getting used to, a sentiment that Bob Jones shared.  

Take away the setting, the club house and the history, is the Old Course a great golfing experience?  

Most of golf's great players, most of the architects, and numerous writers cannot all be wrong.

I walked it for the first time two weeks ago, and was underwhelmed, but thats what I expected given the nature of it.  Since then I've walked it twice more, and caddied for a friend in the New Golf Club's medal.  I'm seeing so many things I didn't even notice the first time.  I expect that as I start to play it regularly, I'll appreciate it further.

Quite frankly, to dismiss it based upon one or two games strikes me as very impatient.

[Pete Lavallee]

Phil,

There is no doubt that TOC is a great golfing experience; it just isn't completely revealed in just one play though. Most tourists don't come away with much after their one and only play of the course for many reasons. Many of the tee shots are blind, over rough broken ground covered with heather and gorse. If you haven't seen the greens previously it is difficult to know what angle you'll need to take off the tee to best access the day's pin position. Each pin position can make the hole play completely different; numerous plays are necessary to experience what each one has to offer. It is not anything like American parkland golf. Just hitting iron shots off dry turf, tighter than the standard US green, takes some getting used to.

TOC is truely a mystery which unfolds gradually. I would recommend that if you do plan to visit try and stay in St Andrews for at least a week, in order to get as many plays as the ballot will allow. You surely won't hear any Americans walking off the 18th green exclaiming: It's a fair course, everything is right there in front of you. And that's a good thing.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Phil,

A lot of US golfers dimiss all of GBI as a "poorly maintained" inferior golf experience.  Others go over and have an "ah Ha" moment about what golf can be.  What do you think the ratio might be?

Of course you can't take the history away from TOC and judge it. While we wouldn't build it that way again, just getting a feel for how golfers played the game centuries ago is worth the experience.  If your friends don't even give a damn about that, we can't worry about it.

[Tom Huckaby]

Phil:

Seems like an unfair question to me. Take away the ocean and the setting and isn't 16 Cypress just another golf hole?

The clubhouse, the setting, the history are all an inherent part of the experience at The Old Course.  So sure, take that away and you've ripped out its soul.  Many golfers are soul-less, however, so for many it's just a flat course with a lot of deep weird bunkers and huge greens.

I just feel sorry for them, that's all.  Golf is so much better with soul.

[Jordan Wall]

Phil:

Seems like an unfair question to me. Take away the ocean and the setting and isn't 16 Cypress just another golf hole?

The clubhouse, the setting, the history are all an inherent part of the experience at The Old Course.  So sure, take that away and you've ripped out its soul.  Many golfers are soul-less, however, so for many it's just a flat course with a lot of deep weird bunkers and huge greens.

I just feel sorry for them, that's all.  Golf is so much better with soul.

Couldn't agree more Tom!!

[Chris Kane]

Have you played the Old Course Jordan?

[Jordan Wall]

I meant I agreed with golf is so much better with soul.
 

No, I haven't btw

[mike_malone]

  I wish more people would bypass the TOC experience and the play would go down and the cost would go down and I could get on easier

    As we stood in line to board our plane to Scotland a few guys right in back of us were talking about all of the courses they were going to play on their trip, including TOC. When we got on the plane my wife asked me why I didn't engage with them. I said "They were looking to add notches on their bedposts; I'm on a pilgrimage."


    On the return trip the guy in the seat next to me was returning from his trip. He said ALL the guys placed TOC as #2 on their trip but only because of all of the history and the fact that they had drinks in the R+A.


     Not everyone appreciates great art!



    I played the second time with a very nice couple from Kentucky. After our tee shots on #18 the woman offered to take my photo on the Swilcan Bridge and to send it to me. She was shocked when I said " No thanks.".

  It isn't about me; it's about the course.

 


   

[Glenn Spencer]

I only played it once, but I think I prefered North Berwick and I know that I liked Muirfield and Gleneagles better. Didn't see a lot of wind though, maybe that was a factor.

[Mark Pearce]

I only played it once, but I think I prefered North Berwick and I know that I liked Muirfield and Gleneagles better. Didn't see a lot of wind though, maybe that was a factor.

I've also only played it once and yes, I enjoyed North Berwick, Muirfield, Carnoustie and Prestwick more.  Part of that was due to an unfortunate experience with the rangers (we got half a hole behind because of a lost ball and were asked (but refused) to cut out a couple of holes around the turn, only to get stuck (playing a three ball) behind a two ball with caddies for the last 8 holes and have to wait on every shot) but mostly because I didn't know or understand the course or where I was going.  I won't pass judgment on TOC until I've played it again and this time I may (for the first time - I've always carried my own bag) invest in a caddy to help negotiate the course.  I strongly suspect from my limited experience that more than any other course it is impossible to form an opinion on TOC until you know it and that means playing it several times.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

What I felt showed the greatness of the course was the way it was set up for the last day of last year's Open.  There was Tiger with a slight lead.  Behind him were lots of aspirants.  They had to attack the course in order to catch Tiger.  The course could not be attacked.  Tiger was able to play sensible golf aiming for two-putt greens in the knowledge that anyone hoping for single-putt greens was more likely to take three putts.  

I was lucky enough to play it many times in the 70s and 80s, when it was comparatively cheap for visitors and, in April and May, very quiet.  You could simply turn up and play - twice a day if you wished to.  My brother-in-law (who grew up there) and I would get round in about an hour and 45 minutes, maybe 2 hours at worst.  It's a compact course with the next tee (playing from the yellows) right alongside the previous green.  I played to somewhere about 10 or 11 handicap in those days and the course was perfectly manageable.  Yet what always impressed me was that it never played the same way twice.  Just a slight change in wind direction or speed - or even the tide going in or out - could make a huge difference to how each hole played.  It was this constant reappraisal of what the golfer was required to do which made it such a great course in my opinion.

Of course there is something marvellous about achieving a birdie on a hole on which some great golfer once took double-bogey and there is a great sense of place in lining a shot up on St Rule's or St Regulus, one church tower or another.  But who allowed that monstrosity, the Old Course Hotel, to be built alongside the 17th?  Come to that, people travel thousands of miles simply to play the Road Hole, perhaps the ugliest hole in all golf?

[Mark Pearce]

Take away the setting, the club house and the history, is the Old Course a great golfing experience?  

Isn't that a bit like asking for opinions on St Paul's Cathederal or the White House, taking away the setting and the history?  The setting, the club house (to a lesser extent) and the history are an integral part of the experience.  If the setting and history (in particular) mean nothing to you, then I suspect you'd be better off at Kingsbarns or Archerfield.

[Dub_ONeill]

I played it one time several years ago and it created several of my favorite memories in golf from that single round.  That said, I think the overwhelming impression from one round is a feeling that you are not sure what just happened.  As has been stated, many of the tee shots are blind.  Added to that is the fact that many of the bunkers are blind.  There are probably half of the full shots that you hit where once it has been struck you turn to the caddy while the ball is in flight seeking some clue whether what is about to befall you is good or bad (and whether he is about to lose his wager on the shot).  Frequently when the result was good you had no idea of the perils avoided until you reached the ball for the next shot.  In one play you simply have no real picture in your mind of at least half of what you have traversed.  It is a wonderful place.

[mike_malone]

 I thought "the golfing experience" was among the best I have ever had. I have expressed my bias about "interest throughout the hole" before in my criticisms of a few courses. Every shot holds your interest here.

   As an example, I played the first day off the plane with three locals who knew the course quite well. And I consulted the course map before each shot-----except for my second on #17. By this time our little match was over and I was getting tired. I was in the left rough and I was well aware of the road hole bunker. But, I got lazy and didn't look at the map. As a result, I hit into the bunker on the left that is short of the road hole bunker. A 9 resulted. I let my guard down once and paid for it.


      The tee shots require planning and execution. Then you will face interesting angles, lies, and wind for your approaches. The enormity of the greens makes "just get it on the green" a silly idea. You must be aware of everything around the green.


     It is an unfortunate fact that these courses need wind to truly shine , but the average golfer can't seem to imagine what it would be like. We are so hopelessly literal. We want to be hit over the head with features on courses and at the same time want it to be fair and not too tough.

[Philippe Binette]

I stayed in st andrews for nearly 4 months and one thing is for sure:

everybody who comes off a tour bus, play 18 holes on the old course and leaves, he has no clue what the hell he is doing out there and will not enjoy the experience...

show up on sunday, walk it at least once and your appreciation will be greater...

I played it 3 times, walked it 12 times more or so and each time it gets better

[Phil Benedict]

I stayed in st andrews for nearly 4 months and one thing is for sure:

everybody who comes off a tour bus, play 18 holes on the old course and leaves, he has no clue what the hell he is doing out there and will not enjoy the experience...

show up on sunday, walk it at least once and your appreciation will be greater...

I played it 3 times, walked it 12 times more or so and each time it gets better

This seems to be a common theme.  What other course demands so much time and commitment to learn to like?  Is this a positive - being initially inscrutable?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I had read about the experience of seeing more of the old course bunkers each time you played, and then experienced it myself. Anyone else have the same?

I can recall being very confused on a few holes, the sixth in particular.  The next time I played, I understood the sixth completely, even though from the tee you can barely see over the gorse.

I think its the best example in the world of a course revealing itself over a long period of time, and perhaps changing a little each time, so it is never fully revealed.  Of course, its that way precisely because of its evolution and natural design - the minute a gca tries to add any "organized" thinking to a course, the "slow reveal quotient" goes down by about 50% immediately.

[Tim Pitner]

If it's the case that you must play St. Andrews several times to appreciate it, should one skip it rather than playing it once?  

I'm not talking about a bus tour here, but suppose one plans a 10 day (or so) trip to Scotland, wants to cover some ground, maybe including the East coast plus the Highlands, and hopes to play some likely favorites (North Berwick, Dornoch) more than once, but probably won't be able to get on TOC more than once.  Should TOC be left out, perhaps seen but not played?

[wsmorrison]

"As an example, I played the first day off the plane with three locals who knew the course quite well. And I consulted the course map before each shot-----except for my second on #17. By this time our little match was over and I was getting tired. I was in the left rough and I was well aware of the road hole bunker. But, I got lazy and didn't look at the map. As a result, I hit into the bunker on the left that is short of the road hole bunker. A 9 resulted. I let my guard down once and paid for it."

Scholar's bunker is about 90 yards short of the Road Hole Bunker and Progressing bunker is about 60 yards short of the RHB.  I'd say you let your guard down quite a bit to miss it by that far or you simply foozled your shot.

[Darren_Kilfara]

I have written about this phenomenon at length in my book ("A Golfer's Education"). I think there are three stages of experiencing the Old Course:

1) Tourist. Everything is exciting, but little is understood. The joys of the course come from its history, not its architecture. (First 1-3 rounds)

2) Heretic. You still don't know where you're going, but you start hitting into lots of bunkers you didn't know were there, and you're frustrated as hell - you actually start hating the course. (Next 4-8 rounds)

3) Convert. Finally the strategy of the course begins to dawn upon you - you learn where the bunkers and all of the good angles are, and you learn how to play the course properly. And it's simply wonderful from that point onward. (Starting anywhere between rounds 6-12)

Phil, if more courses were like TOC - i.e. if it wasn't so alien to our thinking, because there were another 30+ courses in the world with the same sorts of humps, hollows, bunkers etc., the same angles of attack, etc. - I don't think it would be so inscrutable as it actually is. Which gives me an idea for a new thread (which I'll start right away)...

Cheers,
Darren

[MargaretC]

...a common theme.  What other course demands so much time and commitment to learn to like?  Is this a positive - being initially inscrutable?


Phil:

Who hasn't seen a copy of the Mona Lisa?  When some persons see the REAL painting for the first time, they may wonder what the fuss is all about and others get goosebumps.  Go figure?  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

We have played TOC several times and loved it at first sight.  IMO it is exquisite -- add the history and it gives me goosebumps.  

I just don't see it within the context you've described and that's okay.  No one should feel that they have to love TOC to really love golf.

[Mike Hendren]

To merely stand on one of those massive double-greens and look around is overwhelming.

I walked the course on Sunday and played it twice later in the week.  I did not find it nearly as mysterious as most.    The turf was firm (I putted to 3 feet from 100 yards out on the 16th) but the balls did not bound indiscriminately as I had anticipated.  The bunkers were numerous, but I only recall hitting into two - deservedly so.  I found the course surprisingly generous from the tee.  

All that said, it is a sneaky complex golf course in a nuanced kind of way.  It gently slips strokes out of your back pocket when you're not paying attention, particularly on and around those massive greens.  

I love The Old Course.  Yes I do.

Mike

[Brad Klein]

Phil,

this is the oldest topic in golf travel and golf course architecture. Of course if you take away the setting, the clubhouse and the history from St. Andrews, you are taking away quite a bit of the place. All you have is a bunch of dips on the road to the beach.

If you really want to be disappointed, why stop there? When you take away the the bunkers, the tees, the fairways and greens, you have even less to draw your mind's eye to St. Andrews and you are even less likely to walk away impressed.

Why the rush to be overwhelmed? The way most modern golfers set themselves up, they are bound to miss much of what's enduring and worthwhile -- and then they have the nerve to make that a point of criticism. Your friends are too impatient.

Or, they are simply "bomb and gouge" type players with a penchant for the aerrial game and intoleranc eof the ground game. if they go there exp[ecting to fly the ball in, they will be disappointeds no matter how much time they spend there. As Peter Thomson says of St. Andrews and links golf: hitting the greens is easy; staying on them is tough.

[Jeff_Brauer]

If it's the case that you must play St. Andrews several times to appreciate it, should one skip it rather than playing it once?  

I'm not talking about a bus tour here, but suppose one plans a 10 day (or so) trip to Scotland, wants to cover some ground, maybe including the East coast plus the Highlands, and hopes to play some likely favorites (North Berwick, Dornoch) more than once, but probably won't be able to get on TOC more than once.  Should TOC be left out, perhaps seen but not played?

Tim,

Of course not!  Unless your list of things to do before you die includes "totally understand the Old Course" the experience is just too good to pass up.  Maybe even if it is on your list, it sounds like your presumption is that you might never get back, so like for anyone else, your first Scotland trip is an "experience" trip first and foremost anyway, no?

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