Is it the best par 3 in golf ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

I'd mention the 14th at Rolling Green in that category.  You might be familiar with that hole, as well?  

[wsmorrison]

BillV,

My guess is that you're learning something in your old age so that I can agree with you.  As for that old fart Mike Malone, he's too far gone  

Mike,

Right you are.  14 at Rolling Green is a terrific hole.  Charlie Carr has the course in great shape...you ought to get over there.  3,6,10 and 16 aren't so bad either.

Think about the Flynn golf courses you know, Mike.  Flynn's par 3 collections are pretty darn strong, don't you think?  Same for his collection of par 4s and 5s too!

[Bryce Mueller]

I'm confused. to me, as a scratch golfer, a hole like #3 at PVGC couldn't be more diverse depending on wind direction and hole locations. and i would love to play it for the rest of my life.

For instance, when i played it a couple of weeks ago, the first day the pin was front left, and at first glance it looked like playing it up to the right on the huge slope and letting it come down was the best play. However, the second time around, i realized that actually a fade played slightly past the hole was the best way to hold the ball near the hole and that a miss left actually was the best miss...
 
the 5th also has great options, although i can see that for the non-scratch golfer it would just be a ridiculously hard fairway wood or long iron shot.

[Sean Leary]

 
the 5th also has great options, although i can see that for the non-scratch golfer it would just be a ridiculously hard fairway wood or long iron shot.

For a scratch golfer it might be the most ridiculously hard fairway wood or long iron shot in the world.

[Bryce Mueller]

well i agree its extremely difficult by any standards, but to me, it was a totally different shot when the pin was front right as compared to middle left... for instance, the miss was short when the pin was middle left, but short was brutally hard for the pin just over the false front on the right, so my miss became long and/left...

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike, what kind of parent are you? You must sit Dylan down on Sept. 2 in front of the tv for the ND/GT game and force him to become an Irish fan for life. This is the perfect year for it, a National Championship and a Heisman Trophy winner. He will thank you for it later in life as much as teaching him golf.

Tim,

Dylan cheers for Boston College also known as Criptonite College in South Bend, Indiana.   This could be your year as The Domers finally figured that they better not schedule Boston College at home in November when they are 9-0.   However if you do win the big one on New Year's, let's be honest, it might need a little " * " next to it!

[Jason Blasberg]

What is it with Mucci and massive greens on par 3's?

It's a theory you're not familiar with.
Greens within a green.
# 6 at NGLA would be a good example.[/color]

You're in outer space if you think that, what the hell do you know what I know?  I have however played that green less than you, perhaps only 25 times.  Plus I knew your G-I-G theory already.  There are 4,256 post on it (I counted them all).



Do you find fault with that green ?
Do you find fault with that hole ?[/color]

No




Has he ever sung the praises of Friar's Head #10 with its ridiculous green?[/color]

Yes, but, I don't consider the green and hole ridiculous, like you do.


It's ridiculous because it is not a green within a green.  It's different, but I don't consider it great nor interesting.  I don't drink Kool-Aid.

I never said that the 10th at Friar's Head was a green within a green.

You need to read these posts more carefully.



Have you ever played the fifth at Toronto GC?

NO

Is that greens within a green?  

I wouldn't know, I never played it

There are about 25 good, interesting pin positioins there, but alas, it's a par 4.

Is it the best par 4 in the world?

What is the best of anything in golf, what does it mean?


It means that Tiger is better than everybody else.

Please no more colors, I'm going bug-eyed.  This is like that XEOROX commerical with the color chart.    

[Jason Blasberg]

Tom Doak:

Our group was pondering why the bunkers between  10 green and 11 tee are so shallow.  Is there a water table issue there because one small circular bunker had no depth at all?

I was also surprised about how narrow and shallow the right  greenside bunker is on 15.  

Jason

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

The 11th was actually not a par 3, it's the grassed over deck of a semi-sunken aircraft carrier.

Did you know the front section was not originally greenspace?

Nevertheless I like it with greenspace in the front section much better than the way it used to be.

[TEPaul]

"I'm confused. to me, as a scratch golfer, a hole like #3 at PVGC couldn't be more diverse depending on wind direction and hole locations. and i would love to play it for the rest of my life.

For instance, when i played it a couple of weeks ago, the first day the pin was front left, and at first glance it looked like playing it up to the right on the huge slope and letting it come down was the best play. However, the second time around, i realized that actually a fade played slightly past the hole was the best way to hold the ball near the hole and that a miss left actually was the best miss..."

Bryce:

In my opinion too, PVGC's #3 certainly is one of the class par 3s in the world.

When that pin is in front (and it's basically only pinnable on the left 1/3rd of the front and the left 1/2 of the back) the traditional shot to the front pin is to hit the right slope and let the ball filter but one can hit it high and soft and hold that front section right at the pin if the greens aren't too damn fast.

But there's a shot to the rear pin position that is frankly cooler. You can actually hit the ball almost on the right fringe on the back and the ball will release all the way to the middle of the back where the pin sometimes is.

Also, did you know that in Crump's opinion, the shot that was needed on that hole was a fade or even a slice into the cant of the green to hold the shot---the one you apparently tried. Good Show, Crump would be proud of you.

On Harry Colt's iteration of the 3rd at PVGC he had the tee placed right about the middle of the present 2nd green, and the 2nd green placed to the left of its present position. To that Crump reportedly simply said:

"No Good".  

[JESII]

If diversity is king, go to Royal New Kent near Richmond Virginia. #'s 3 and 12 offer more varied length's and angles than any hole I could imagine. Never played The Creek, but these holes not only offer comparable yardage differences to the referrenced #11, but about 100 yards in width on tee angles.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Where else in golf are 200+ foot putts possible from on the green ?  

St Andrews TOC has greens where 200 or even 300 foot putts are possible (if you're a really erratic player) from on the green.  Even a par 3, Eden, with potentially a 90 yard green, but, of course that's in the width, and it's not surrounded by water.  But it has wind and diversity of pin locations.  

Agreed, but, double greens would be in a seperate category and should not be confused with single greens.

I've never played the Creek, but from the aerials, it appears that the tees are in more or less a straight line.  Where's the diversity of teeing angles to the green.

Could you name 5 great, original, par 3's with diversity in the teeing angles ?

Par 3's inherently restrict angles of attack off the tee.
Their diversity is usually found at the green end, not the tee end.

When I first read your post I thought you were going to say the 17th at the Ocean Course at Kiawah.  But then it's not surrounded, or 90 yards long, but it does have wind and a diversity of teeing angles.

Wind has to be one of the greatest elements in golf and golf course design, it's a variable of unusual dimension.

As to teeing angles, I would submit the 6th and 7th greens at NGLA.  They could be approached from 360 degrees and maintain their interest and challenge, and not many greens can claim that unique property.

[Patrick_Mucci]

In my mind a template hole cannot be the best par 3 in golf.  I much prefer a green site that is or is made to look more natural.  The concept of a biarritz green is fun to play but is not great because it is so obviously man-made and replicated.  

Wayne,

Are you rejecting the architecture at NGLA out of principle ?

All of MacDonald's, Raynor's and Bank's work as well ?

You like others are too focused on the Biarritz "nature" of # 11.

It's a hybrid Biarritz at best.

It neither possesses the front and rear elevations associated with Biarritz's, nor does it possess the deep center trough.

While the settings and yardages differ, the hole is not unique enough to be great.  

What other par 3's have the diversity in "playability" ?
In conjunction with the wind as such an influencial factor ?

That's my definition of greatness and I'm sticking to it.  By the way, if a template hole was to be considered great, I would choose the 4th at NGLA over the 11th at The Creek.

The 6th at NGLA would be my preference.
It has far more diversity in its "play" than the 4th.

And I love the Creek as a club, as a course in general and the 11th in particular.  

But the best par 3 on the planet?  NO WAY.  I can think of many that I like better (it is subjective and I respect Pat's opinion) such as Merion's 3rd.  In my mind it is a lot better and even offers the desired diversity that Pat is looking for.  It has better angles, multiple pin positions, length and outstanding internal slopes and contours.

Wayne, certainly a great hole, but, it lacks the flexibility offered by the 11th to be played at 100 yards or 250 yards, and it's not surrounded by water, and, the WIND is not much of a constant factor.

I don't understand why Pat insists that diversity is key to greatness.  

If not a key, certainly an instrumental element, for without diversity, the hole becomes one dimensional and monotony sets in

Does that mean that holes that are based upon shot testing cannot be great?  

I never said that and recognized other par 3's as great.
# 11 at Shinnecock is a great hole, but, it's a one dimensional hole where the challenge has been raised considerably, at the tee, at the green and at the surrounds, and it has wind as an integral component.

But, it's set at about 157 and is a pass/fail type of test.
Recovery is possible but doubtful.

If so, Pine Valley, Merion, Huntingdon Valley, Shinnecock and other courses must not be great.  Was the 11th green at The Creek always green height on both plateaus?  A 1938 aerial I have indicates that the front part was not green.  So, if not original, it was not intended to be the hole Pat enjoys today.  Shouldn't that enter the equation?

I have the same aerial, taken 15 years after the golf course was built and after the Depression.

Are you sure that the foot pad wasn't originally intended to be all green ?
 
I agree with BillV (imagine that) that the 11th at Shinnecock Hills is magnificent.  

Agreed

The entire collection of par 3s there is exceptionally fine as was Flynn's tendency to create outstanding collections of par 3s on nearly all his courses.

Your bias is showing  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak:

Our group was pondering why the bunkers between  10 green and 11 tee are so shallow.  Is there a water table issue there because one small circular bunker had no depth at all?

Jason, that entire area, including # 10, 11, 12, 13  and 14 have to have water issues.

The photo from 1938 shows the areas as sand that are now reeds.

And, the dikes paralleling the 10th and 13th holes would indicate that water remains a problem

I was also surprised about how narrow and shallow the right  greenside bunker is on 15.  

Jason

[Jordan Wall]

Pat,

Would you please elaborate on how the Creek #11 is better than CPC #16

I have never played either and would thus like to hear your comments.

Thanks in advance

[Jason Blasberg]

Pat:

I'm sure there are water table issues but could you go down 3 feet?  If you could, I can't imagine why the bunkers between 10-11 aren't deeper.  If you couldn't I'm not sure why it's not maintained as either a grass bunker or as a much larger waste area.  IMO, having such small bunkers with no bite surrounded by rough creates a situation where you're better off in the hazard, which has always irked me (although that's mostly the case in any US Open set up).

As you stand on the 11 tee looking toward the Sound it's clear the property slopes significantly toward 11 tee and so the 10 green must drain directly underneath those bunkers.  

I'm curious as to why they are even there if the water table is that high.  If it's not, I'm curious as to why they don't have some teeth.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Would you please elaborate on how the Creek #11 is better than CPC #16

I have never played either and would thus like to hear your comments.

Thanks in advance

Jordan,

I don't have the time or inclination to detail my descriptions and thoughts on the two holes.

Suffice it to say that you can play # 11 at 100 to 250 yards, something that can't be done at # 16.

Mike Sweeney's 10 year old son parred the hole.
Sweeney doesn't have enough money to finance the golf ball fund necessary to allow his son the luxury of parring the 16th hole, which won't happen until he can hit the ball a lot further.

I don't consider playing the hole as a par 4 an attractive option.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

I'm sure there are water table issues but could you go down 3 feet?  

Sure, but how would you drain it when it filled with water ?

If you could, I can't imagine why the bunkers between 10-11 aren't deeper.  

Jason, the high tide mark isn't that far away.
In addition, erosion has taken its toll on the beach which was a barrier for surge.  I would think that you'd want everything in that area to be a little higher.   Just look at # 14 tee.

If you couldn't I'm not sure why it's not maintained as either a grass bunker or as a much larger waste area.

A grass bunker would be faced with essentially the same problems.  

IMO, having such small bunkers with no bite surrounded by rough creates a situation where you're better off in the hazard, which has always irked me (although that's mostly the case in any US Open set up).

On such a short hole, being in the bunker is an architectural slap in the face.  You shouldn't be there.  And, with the cup located on the far left or in the back of the green a bunker shot is directly at the hazard.  A slight blade, not enough sand or an overswing brings an X into the equation.

As you stand on the 11 tee looking toward the Sound it's clear the property slopes significantly toward 11 tee and so the 10 green must drain directly underneath those bunkers.  


I'm sure that # 10 by the green has been under water more than once.

Don't confuse surface runoff with a high water table.

I'm curious as to why they are even there if the water table is that high.  If it's not, I'm curious as to why they don't have some teeth.  

Depth is not a luxury in that location.

I think the shallowness of the bunkers fits what Mother Nature permits.  I'm not so sure that that bunker is original.

A 1938 photo reveals that the area now covered with reeds was once all sand.   Holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 and 14 short of the creek was mostly all sand, with NO reeds.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

I've never been to The Creek.

So I am as puzzled as young Jordan is on this.

I understand completely from this thread that #11 is a very diverse golf hole, one that can be played many different ways at many different distances.  If you want to call it the most diverse par 3 in golf, I'd take your word for it.

I just don't quite accept that diversity absolutely equals greatness.  Why is that so?

Or is that to be just taken as a given?  If so, then for you, this may well be the greatest par 3 in golf.

Just do understand that not all would agree that diversity is the sole measure of greatness.

TH

[SPDB]

Pat -
The island nature of the hole does make it unique, but only in the context of biarritz holes (i.e. island greens aren't terribly unique, but an island biarritz green is very unique).

Like I said, I think the island nature keeps it from being a better hole. I always like short game interest, and an island green completely prevents that. If the versatility that you see because of the varying hole lengths is the key than I would point to Friars Head #10 as possessing the same attributes with a much more interesting green complex (i.e. the green and its surrounds).

[Tim Leahy]

Tim, Dylan cheers for Boston College also known as Criptonite College in South Bend, Indiana.   This could be your year as The Domers finally figured that they better not schedule Boston College at home in November when they are 9-0.   However if you do win the big one on New Year's, let's be honest, it might need a little " * " next to it!

Mike, you lost soul, I will give you a pass on this one since your cheering for the school that gave the greatest coach in college football history, Frank Leahy, his start before he got called up to the big leagues at ND. Hopefully your son will find his way to the ND Nation on his own, especially since BC will now become the whipping boy of the ACC and the only player any one has heard of from BC, that Flutie character, has drop kicked for the last time.

[Jordan Wall]

Pat,

Would you please elaborate on how the Creek #11 is better than CPC #16

I have never played either and would thus like to hear your comments.

Thanks in advance

Jordan,

I don't have the time or inclination to detail my descriptions and thoughts on the two holes.

Suffice it to say that you can play # 11 at 100 to 250 yards, something that can't be done at # 16.

Mike Sweeney's 10 year old son parred the hole.
Sweeney doesn't have enough money to finance the golf ball fund necessary to allow his son the luxury of parring the 16th hole, which won't happen until he can hit the ball a lot further.

I don't consider playing the hole as a par 4 an attractive option.

Are you saying #11 is a better hole because Sweeney's son parred it (good job to your son btw Mike!)??

Isn't the beauty of CPC #16 that folks who cannot hit the ball far enough have a seperate route to the hole and can still make par with three good shots[/color] though length prevents them hitting the green in one?

If #11 was playing at 250 yards what would Mike's son have done?
There is no lay-up or extra options to an island green...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Are you saying #11 is a better hole because Sweeney's son parred it (good job to your son btw Mike!)??

NO[/color]

Isn't the beauty of CPC #16 that folks who cannot hit the ball far enough have a seperate route to the hole and can still make par with three good shots though length prevents them hitting the green in one?

They can do the same thing at The Creek by playing down the adjacent 10th fairway.[/color]

If #11 was playing at 250 yards what would Mike's son have done?

With the green 90 yards deep that would leave a 160 yard shot from the extreme back tees.
If he could hit the ball 170 yards that would leave him an 80 yard putt.

If he couldn't, he'd play down the 10th fairway.[/color]


There is no lay-up or extra options to an island green...

In this case, there are lay up or extra options available, I just don't like them.[/color]

Tom Huckaby,

If you saw the hole, you'd love it.
All of the wonderful elements come together to create a great hole.

SPDB,

# 10 at Friar's Head can be a totally blind hole, and as such, I don't think it's in the same league as # 11 at The Creek, and I don't think it can play to 100  yards or less, and there's no water to heighten fear within the golfers mind.

As much as I like # 10 at FH, I think # 11 at TC is superior.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Pat

What's the difference between Creek #11 and any of 100 par 3's with a back tee playing 240 and a set of forward tees that can play 100 yards?  Furthermore, the holes with multiple tees can play to a green with much more interest with regard to contour and short game options.

I think Creek #11 is a cool hole but I could think of numerous par 3's that I think are better.  Friars Head #10 is one of them as is #11 at Shinnecock as mentioned. I think the biarritz holes at Yale, Fishers Island and The Knoll are infinately better then Creek #11.  Who wants an 80 yard putt?  I've had my share of 50 yard putts at Yale #9.

ps- The green on #11 at the Creek looks like Rees Jones came in to prepare the course for a PGA Championship. Flat with a tiny swale and tons of pin locations - (I'm generally not a Rees basher but I could not resist that shot   )

[Tom Huckaby]

Pat:

I have zero doubt I'd love the golf hole - I trust you on that also.

But "best par 3 in golf" is extremely high praise.  I'm trying to get a handle as to why the hole deserves that.  If it's just due to the diversity, than that's fine... I just doubt I'd call it the best par in golf for solely that reason.

TH