[APBernstein]

Besides simply playing around the lake, is there a better way of traversing a large lake such as Kadijah?  

With a lake of that size in the middle of the property, forced carries seem almost a given.  But where?  Tee shots seem more appropriate than approach shots.  Also, if one hole parallels the lake, that leaves less room for other holes to use the lake...maybe a factor in the design?

Obviously, Medinah uses its lake for "dramatic" par 3s, but is there a better way?

[wsmorrison]

Aren't three of the par 3 holes downhill over the lake?  I believe a fourth is level.  That is some kind of routing mistake and an architectural negative if other alternatives presented themselves.

[Steve Lang]

 

would it be better to ask.. how do the other courses there use the lake, if at all???

[David_Madison]

If the routing allows, how about using the lake on the diagonal, as in a cape style hole? If I remember correctly from watching on television yesterday, weren't there a couple of cases where after crossing the lake on par-3's, the next tees were to the right of the greens and the holes running somewhat parallel to the lake. If you could find a par-3 somewhere else in the routing, couldn't a hole have started at the par-3 tee and ended at the following hole's green?

[JR Potts]

I can't figure out how to get a diagonal par 3 on the course without totally screwing up the routing.

WAIT - I guess you can do it by making 14 a par 3 with the green down on the right of the 14th fairway in the gully.  Then you would walk back up to the current 14th fairway and play 15 as a 430 yard par 5.  15 (16) and 16 (17) would play the same.  Then you finish on the current 17th tee, with a drive over the water onto the current 18th fairway/rough.  It would play as a relatively easy par 5 though.

[Matthew Rose]

I made a post about this in the "Emperor" thread, suggesting that they restore the original routing or something similar to it.

There used to be a par-3 that played from near the current 16th green to the beginning of the current 14th fairway. This was the old 14th hole, and the old 15th was a short par-4 that played to the current 14th green.

From some recent overheads I've seen, the old 14th hole appears to be somewhat intact. I think you could build a really nice par-3 there that parallels Lake Kadijah on the left and have a nice hole that is just as intimidating but features a lateral hazard rather than just an all-or-nothing carry like on the other two holes.

Of course, restoring the old routing would require putting the 18th tee back near somewhere by the (current) 13th green; I'm not sure there is room there to make the 18th hole "long" enough.

[Tim_Cronin]

We're really talking about playing across Medinah Creek here, not Lake Kadijah. That's a 50-acre-plus manmade lake, a good quarter-mile across for the most part. You can't get here from there.
The second hole is at the mouth of the creek (of the lake), while the 13th and 17th are to the west.
One of the plans submitted by Roger Packard for the 1985 redo of the course had the first 17 holes staying, and an 18th hole built from behind the now-13th green and running roughly west-southwest, with the green adlacent to the water about where the current 17th green is. Something hit to the left would be wet. But that meant a 500-yard walk back to the clubhouse, so that was out.
Matt's right, there sort of a replica of the original par 3 on the bluff to the south of Medinah Creek, with two teeing areas and a flat, bunkerless green. I'm guessing it was used while the current 17th was being rebuilt again. It was roped off during the PGA.
The original was the 14th hole in the 1932-85 routing of the course. What's now the par-5 14th was, as Matt noted, the par 4 15th, the current 12th was the 16th, the current 13th (two green complexes earlier) was the 17, the current spot for the majority of corporate tents was the 18th, a short dogleg right with the bend in the wrong place. Players didn't even hit driver there during the 1949 U.S. Open.

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