What Did We Learn From Medinah Architecture?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

The lesson is make the player think.

[Mike_Cirba]

1) Fast, flat "pinnable" greens are not only dull, uninspired, and sleep-inducing but they are MUCH easier than any other type of green.

2) Removing any hint of blindness from a course just lets the top players dial-in for "practice range" golf.

3) Tiger proofing courses by making them longer just plays right into Tiger's hands.

4) The day of the old "flanking" bunkers in the "landing zone" is dead, hopefully.   Top players either lay up short of them or blast over them, but the Open Doctor's insistence on this type of routine, humdumdrum is starting to border on requiring malpractice insurance.

5) New equipment have completely marginalized deep grass as a hazard for top players.   These guys were launching it 250 onto greens from the high stuff.    

[Mike_Cirba]

Oh...and,

6) Removing bunkers from the inside of the dogleg and replacing them with bunkers on the outside of the dogleg is just brilliant.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Oh...and..

7) If there's an uglier golf hole than the 5th version of the 17th hole, I haven't seen it.

7b) What the hell did they do to the 13th?!?!?  It used to be the most visually appealing hole on the course.  Now, with the multi-pod of what seems to be 15 tee areas built onto the hill to the most strangely bunkered hole on the course, it's abysmal.
 
7c) Oh, and the 2nd hole can also be found at Wild Wing Falcon course in Myrtle Beach, down to the shapely bunker.  Oh wait..that was Arcadian Shores...and Belle Terre....and Waterway Hills...and Falcon's Fire, and...

[Jeff_Brauer]

The lesson is make the player think.

Tiger,

It might make for a better tournament, but I wonder if scores would be higher as  result?

And, as to wide fw already suggested by others, if they can hit 25 yard fw areas, is it really harder to hit 25 yards within a wider fw?  And with the greens as soft as they were, would there really be a strategic advantage, since they held so well?

I guess I wonder if options really baffle the tour player in that sense. The option of going for pins vs playing to the green center was there, and Tiger used the conservative route to perfection in protecting his lead, even bombing in a few long ones for good measure.

I am leaning towards thinking that green contours and fall aways may really be the thing to focus on.

[Brent Hutto]

I am leaning towards thinking that green contours and fall aways may really be the thing to focus on.

I think so too.

Flattening greens so as to speed them up is like throwing elite players into the briar patch. Fast greens may scare hackers or perhaps someone with the yips but good players love fast greens. And making them flat just lets them make more putts.

[T_MacWood]

Would Cogg Hill have presented stiffer more interesting test?

[W.H. Cosgrove]

And it was boring..........the tree lined corridors on that golf course and the similarity of the par was simply mind numbing.  I wanted to be compelled after Wing Foot, Hoylake, and Newport had made for some of the most interesting viewing in years, instead we got a trudge through the woods around a lake.  

If I had wanted that I would have gone for a hike.  

On a more local note, after watching the PGA, I am more convinced than ever that narrow tree lined courses are a golf disaster.  After several years leading an effort to thin the trees on my Pac Nor West club, I am certainthan that removal of many will help the course.  The green committee is not fighting to plant two trees for every one removed.  

The next tree may be the source of the paper to write my resignation as t green chair!  

[Phil McDade]

Tim:

Pinehurst may not be strategic (not sure how you define that -- varying length and width?), but it's held up to scoring relative to par better than almost any major tournament site in recent years. Campbell won at even par last year, and Stewart won in '99 with -1; even WF, where the winner went +5 this year, was handled by Love in '97 at -11.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I am leaning towards thinking that green contours and fall aways may really be the thing to focus on.

I think so too.

Flattening greens so as to speed them up is like throwing elite players into the briar patch. Fast greens may scare hackers or perhaps someone with the yips but good love fast greens. And making them flat just lets them make more putts.

Brent,

Its not just the flattening, but the typical back to front slope to assist holding shots.  If the green was at all firm, there would be some interplay and tradeoff to a flatter green - they would need more spin on flatter greens, less spin on steeper ones.  

The double tier green on 15 seemed to give them some trouble, with short shots spinning backwards several yards from the hole.  Of course, I saw Tiger practicing his "dead hands low spin" swing and he had no trouble.

I think a variety of slopes on front to back greens - some nearly flat, some up to 3% or more, some greens or areas of greens having reverse or side slopes only, and some fall aways that roll a missed shot away from the hole, like 15, or off the greens like Pinehurst, would be what was necessary to make green shots challenging for pros.  That might lead to more members three putts, but those are usually less painful than losing balls in trees and hitting in bunkers.

[T.J. Sturges]

Tim,

What would be a course you would put up as a role model of strategic tournament golf?

By the way, I'm headed to The Trophy Club on Thurs., and Rock Hollow on Fri./Sat. (2 very fun courses to play IMHO).      

TS

[peter_p]

Punchbowl greens with surrounds that can be roughed for tournament conditions. Smaller greens which are segmented.
More diagonals in the landing area.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jeff, I find the thinking mans courses do result in higher scores. However, high scores are not my desire. I just like something other than big drives and darts tossed at greens. That is part of my problem with Rees. He does not seem to place proper importance on strategic options and thinking driven green complexes. A major should be played on a course where there are places to be and not to be. And within the to be areas there are really places to be if one wants to score. However, there is risk associated with all of that to be put in the formula. I just found the PGA this year to be without anything approaching interest to watch other than the pleasure of Tiger winning. He hit some poor shots but was able to handle the issues with relative ease.

[Tim Pitner]

And it was boring..........the tree lined corridors on that golf course and the similarity of the par was simply mind numbing.  I wanted to be compelled after Wing Foot, Hoylake, and Newport had made for some of the most interesting viewing in years, instead we got a trudge through the woods around a lake.  

Yes, it was.  I couldn't tell one hole from another and the soft conditions made for terribly boring golf.  It may be a good course, but I have no desire to see another prestigious tournament there.  The Ryder Cup?--say it isn't so.  Of course, compared to Valhalla, the Belfry, Gleneagles Centenary, Celtic Manor, etc., Medinah may come out alright.

[Tim Liddy]

Ted,

For a modern example I would submit Whistling Straits.  The Old Course also did OK. Please have a great time at The Trophy Club and The Rock.  For my client’s sake, I hope you are paying retail.

[tlavin]

And it was boring..........the tree lined corridors on that golf course and the similarity of the par was simply mind numbing.  I wanted to be compelled after Wing Foot, Hoylake, and Newport had made for some of the most interesting viewing in years, instead we got a trudge through the woods around a lake.  

Yes, it was.  I couldn't tell one hole from another and the soft conditions made for terribly boring golf.  It may be a good course, but I have no desire to see another prestigious tournament there.  The Ryder Cup?--say it isn't so.  Of course, compared to Valhalla, the Belfry, Gleneagles Centenary, Celtic Manor, etc., Medinah may come out alright.

The defenders of a dead golf course continue to amuse me beyond all measure.  I'll readily admit that I was sorely disappointed by the overly-saturated course at Medinah, but it was much more enjoyable than looking at the dead fairways of Liverpool.  I prefer a firm and fast golf course and Medinah probably should have been firmer and faster (it wasn't ALL Mother Nature's fault), but when man intervenes and tries to basically kill a golf course in order to make it harder that is not strategy, it is barbarism.  Do you really find it interesting to watch a perfectly good tee shot hit a brick-hard, dead fairway and then bounce into the moribund heather, thereby protecting par?  Is that golf?  If so, I'd rather play, or watch, tennis.

[T.J. Sturges]

Tim Liddy,

Thanks for that.  I LOVE the Old Course, and I love "some" of WS.  

I ALWAYS pay retail (Ran can't stand to hang out w/ me for that reason, because Golf's Most Beloved Figure--aka America's Guest--pays more greens fees in a week traveling with me than he does in a year elsewhere).  

The Trophy Club Thursday is for fun, the IGA State Four Ball is back at RH this FRI-MON.

TS

[Tim Liddy]

TS,

Thanks.  I am on the road the remainder of the week, but will be routing for you.

[Adam Clayman]

Terry, What time shall I reserve your court?

Balls bouncing into heather is exactly what unpredictable golf should be. The fact that you still call the grass dead in Liverpool, not only is dead wrong, it's mostly dead wrong.

Mother nature played a bigger roll in turning the fairways DORMANT in England than she did in softening the overly soft conditions outside Chicago.

[MargaretC]

With all due respect to the members of Medinah and anyone else who thinks it's a great golf course, I think it's a great example of what a golf course shouldn't be...

Overly landscaped, tree-lined runways and flat greens is not my idea of a golf course.

I could care less about the scores as they related to par.  IMO, the course is dull.

[Adam Clayman]

MargretC- It is as easy as 123, the number of posts you've made when penning those words. I don't know you, and have never met you, but I love the way you think about golf courses.

You must have played alot of golf in your life?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Why do I get the distinct feeling that Ryan Potts is wishing you all into the cornfield?

[JR Potts]

Why do I get the distinct feeling that Ryan Potts is wishing you all into the cornfield?

LOL!

I've gotten over it.  And now that I'm not late night drunk posting, I have the senses to realize that I didn't design it, I didn't have any input as to the contouring and I love the golf course as is, so why should I get offended about what others think....each is entitled to their own opinions.

[Mike Hendren]

The lesson is make the player think.

Then Tiger wins by a dozen.  Did you see the way he played the 17th yesterday?  Brilliant given the circumstances.  Tiger's smarter than the "other" guys.

Mike

[Bruce Katona]

One of the most talked about green complexes on Sunday was #18, which had the collection area close to the pin location.  Most of the guys were firing away from the pin to avoid the chance of having to get up and down from this area.

This proves a point, as bogey golfers have little trouble getting the ball onto the green from these areas provided the grass is cut short enough to chip or putt out of it.  A bogey golfer rarely goes "up and down" from chiipng area, in the collar or from a bunker.  Professionals are challenged from the fringe and these collection areas as they are more unpredicable than a sand bunker.

Lastly, if the green speed was decreased, sharply sloping pin locations could be used, as they were in the golden age of golf.  Wouldn't that be fun to see (similar green conditions to what they face annually at The Open Cahmpionshiop).

In Summary:

More chipping/collection areas
Slower green speeds for funkier pin positions
Softer sand to penalize the play into the bunker.  Way back when the PGA Tour used to have bunkers with a more varied sand than presently.