Having recently visited Doak's Apache Stronghold (AS), and as a fairly longtime fan of Crenshaw & Coore's Talking Stick North (TSN), I was working on this comparison over the weekend many of you were hanging out @ Barona. Both of these courses are Arizona desert courses designed by architects we (generally) admire on this site; the difference is that C&C were given a completely flat desert with a few barrancas, while Doak had a hilly, barranca filled desert. There have been several general comparisons to the two courses on the AS-Barona thread, and today Scott Burroughs was good enough to post TSN on Aerial of the Day #85 (happy coincidence--thanks Scott!), so you can have a look for yourselves (holes 2 and 3 run along the fenceline to the left of the photo). Hole measurements below are from the back tees (AS 7519/72--74.9/138, TSN 7133/70--73.8/125). Both courses can be found in the Course Descriptions section of GCA.com. I compare these two fine courses as follows:
Hole #1: AS begins with a solid, long but unspectacular par 5 (661) while TSN begins with a rather benign medium length par 4 (394) to a very flat, open green. The greensite at AS and the excellent guarding hillock short of AS #1 give this hole to AS. AS 1 up.
Hole #2: AS has a very solid par 4 dogleg right (427) that beautifully uses the barranca to create both options on the tee shot and angles on the approach (the closer to the barranca off the tee, the better the angle on the second shot). TSN has a reachable par 5 (510) that is really unique--the tee and the green are both right next to (ie 15 yards) a barbed wire OB fence. You can take the direct route to the green and risk the OB or play away from the OB and face a longer second with a bunker guarding the right front too. A very tough call here.Though I'm not a fan of OB the TSN hole is so unique in its use of it I give the nod to TSN. All square.
Hole #3. AS has a long par 3 (239) to a very good green in an excellent setting against a hillside, TSN a long par 4 (450) with OB left and a carry bunker on the left side and very reachable bunkers lurking along the right side. Bunkers greenside right make the left side drive preferable, but it's very hard to hit it there. I think the TSN hole is underrated, and though the AS greensite is excellent I found this hole not as architecturally compelling as TSN #3. TSN 1 up.
Hole #4. Again a tough battle between two excellent holes. The AS hole (398) plays over a corner bunker to dogleg left to a type of skyline green between two hills; TSN (430) features a fierce bunker in the middle right of the fairway that must be avoided either by a 240 yard carry or play to the left for a longer second. The greens are comparable in my opinion. Again, two excellent holes that each have their strengths. Halved and TSN 1 up.
Hole #5. AS is a big par 4 (470) with one of my favourite types of driving areas--the landing area looks tighter from the tee than it really is as it widens past some brush areas. The greensite is really cool, perched on a hillside with several great pin positions. Balls hit onto the hill left of the green will careen down onto the green with differing results. A very fun hole. TSN #5 (391) has a great bunker smack in the middle of the fairway. This hole called "Left is Right" encourages a play to the narrower left side for a better angle to the green (excellent greenside bunker right) or a 250 yard carry over the bunker. Another very tough call but I just find the AS greensite compelling. All square.
Hole #6. AS has a picturesque, drivable par 4 (325) from an elevated tee over bunkers to another perched green. TSN's is a long par 3 (223) to a large two tiered green. I didn't find much compelling about the TSN hole, so the edge goes to the AS hole due to the options it provides. AS 1 up.
Hole #7. AS is a long downhill left to right par 4 (456) around a hillside to a narrow green protected greenside left and the green has a subtle right to left slope that makes recoveries from the open right side difficult. TSN a straightaway par 4 (457) with a ditch bordering the right side and a fairway bunker on the left. I came to appreciate both these holes the second time I played them--they're both straightforward yet subtle. Halved. AS 1 up.
Hole #8. A medium length par 5 (552) at AS that can be reachable with a long drive and a blind second over a hillside to a green tucked around a left-bending corner. For most players, though, a rather average three shotter. TSN's is a 153 yard par 3 that I found the least interesting hole on the course. AS 2 up.
Hole #9. Two good par 4s (AS 447, TSN 446), with good fairway bunkering on both. The greensite and green at AS #9 are superb--multiple pin positions and slopes/swales, while the 9th green at TSN is pretty flat. AS 3 up.
Hole #10. No contest, as the AS par 4 (472) is great, a difficult driving hole to a fairway bisected by sandy bunkers, waste and trees and a green that falls away. TSN's par 4 10th (437) is a bookend of #7, though better bunkered in the fairway. AS 4 up.
Hole #11. A battle of par 3s here. AS is a midiron (176) to a green with a very good greenside left bunker, TSN a driveable par 3 (that's right--261!) with a bunker short of the green that looks fiercer and closer to the green than it is. Gotta love the long, tough but fair par 3 here, and AS #11 required a similar shot and had a similar but tamer look compared to the Redan 14th. AS 3 up.
Hole #12. Two strong par 4s, AS at 418 and TSN at 392. The AS hole features a fine bunker short of the green and a grassed, natural swaled chipping area right of the green. TSN is a risk/reward par 4 with a dry wash bisecting the fairway. Both holes beautifully use the land provided, but a slight edge to TSN for the routing and greensite. AS 2 up.
Hole #13. Again, two par 4s. AS is a very long (480) hole that first doglegs right over a bunker-laden hill that you must drive over or around via a fade, then winds uphill on the second shot around a hill on a shot that favours a draw. TSN's #13 (391) is a dogleg right with a cluster of bunkers guarding the right side and a bumpy fairway that presents a challenge. I like both holes, and the subtly sloped TSN green is particularly good, but the AS hole is better from tee to green. AS 3 up.
Hole #14. AS's Redan (186) vs a big par 4 (445) at TSN. Though I like Doak's Redan #17 at Pacific Dunes better because it has more slope, the AS Redan is no slouch. The AS greensite may be better--perched on a hillside. TSN's 14th is a solid,strong hole that allows for a running approach, but it lacks the flair of the better 15th and can't top the Redan. AS 4 up.
Hole #15. A tough choice here. I really like the par 5 AS hole (614), which plays from a very high elevated tee down to a fairway that bends right. The bunkering in the second shot landing area and greenside are great, and the green is a beauty, with a neat lower pin position back right. Having said that, I love the TSN 15th, a 464 par 4 that plays slightly uphill and doglegs left to a sloped green bunkered short and right. You have to hit your tee shot over or near the right side fairway bunker to the proper place to clearly see the green. Very well done C&C. AS 3 up.
Hole #16. A back to back par 5 at AS (510), reachable but one must avoid the fairway bunker 60 yards or so in front of the green right in the middle of the fairway. TSN's 16th is a 194 yard par 3 that features the most interesting green on the course-rolls and swales that make recoveries and putting a true adventure. AS 2 up.
Hole #17. AS has a big uphill par 3 (230) to a large tiered green, TSN a longish par 5 (582) with very good fairway bunkering left and right off the tee. Not much going on around the green at TSN #17, and this leads me to give the nod to AS. AS 3 up.
Hole #18. Two big par 4s to finish, 458 at AS and 471 at TSN. The AS hole plays way downhill off a bluff/cliff into a valley fairway with a Principal's Nose bunker in the landing zone middle, TSN's is slightly uphill to a very wide fairway. Although AS clearly has the "wow" factor on the tee shot, I thought the finishing green was surprisingly anticlimactic; also, the TSN finishing hole is relatively benign except for the length. Halved and AS 3 Up.
Despite the "win" by AS above, note again that the topography of the two courses is strikingly different, affording Doak many more options. On TSN, I love the foozle bunkers C&C placed on several holes, the fairway bunkers are exceptional (though they seem so much stronger on holes 2-5 than on the rest of the course--why?) and the subtlety of the greens and generous chipping areas can lull you into a false sense that the course is "easy." AS has the stronger, brawnier features, and Doak is in my opinion a master at greensites. In the end, this these compelling greensites and the green contouring are where the difference lies I think. Must plays #s 1-2 in this area for me.
All The Best,