NJ Quiz

[Craig Disher]

Here's a test for the eastcoasters. This aerial of a course in NJ was taken in 1947. The extraordinary bunkers shown here are not typical of those on the rest of the course so I'm not sure if they are the product of the original architect or a bizarre artifact added later. Can anyone identify the course? I left part of the clubhouse as a hint - and north is at the top of the aerial.

[Sean_Tully]

craig

wow.

Those are definatley some of the craziest bunkers i have ever seen. I wonder how they must have looked from the ground!

Being a left coaster, I am limited in my NJ courses to say the least. So, with that my guess would be Deal.

On the aerial tip, I have been tracking down some early 1920's aerials that are in and aorund the Bay area. It has taken me about a year of looking to find them. They were recently located in an old chicken farm. Glad someone saw the importance of them at last.

Tully

[wsmorrison]

They sure are weird looking, Craig.  From what little we can see, it does look like, or should I say that it is likely they were done by a different architect as they are a lot different than the other bunkers in the photograph.  Were there any more of these around the course?  Interestingly there are some trees within the smaller puzzle piece bunker at the bottom left, right?  

[Glenn Spencer]

Hominy Hill?

[T_MacWood]

Craig
I don't know the course but the bunkers remind a little of similar bunkers at Glen Ridge. My guess is they are old features from the original architect (or one of the original architects).

[Craig Disher]

Not Hominy Hill or Glen Ridge.

The cut-out bunkers look similar to some at Hollywood GC but if AoG is correct the courses didn't share architects.

Here's a contemporary view of the same area. No comment.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Hominy Hill?

RTJ didn't build Hominy until the mid-1960s.  I'm not jumping on, just sharing some info.  

[Kyle Harris]

That new bunkering looks Ault/Clark-ish.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Craig-

  I'm not sure why I think this, but is this Rumson CC, per chance?  The aerials didn't match perfectly, but here's to hoping...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Craig,

I'm trying to relate the clubhouse to the nearby greens.

Give me a little more time before revealing the answer.

My first guess would be Green Brook, based on the recent photo and the configuration of the parking lot and clubhouse.

If it is Green Brook, do you have any idea with respect to the dates the older, neat looking bunkers were removed ?

[Craig Disher]

I would have been surprised if Pat Mucci had not identified the course. He's right of course, it's Green Brook in North Caldwell, NJ.

The original architect was Robert White. He did some work, perhaps most of the design, at East Potomac GC here in DC and I tried without success to see any similarities between the two courses. AoG cites a revision to Green Brook in 1925 by Maurice McCarthy who did a little design work in the NE in the 20s and 30s. His best known course is the Hershey CC course in Hershey, PA.

If you look at the hamburger shaped bunker on the left of the earlier aerial, that pattern (two semi-circles facing each other) is repeated several times at Hershey. However, the puzzle cut-outs are unique to Green Brook.

At some point (when the Archives finishes archiving them:-\) I'll be able to look at 1930-era photos of northern NJ which should give a better idea of whether or not the cut-outs date back to McCarthy's revisions from the 20s.

Or perhaps there is a Green Brook member lurking?

Another thing I noticed in the old aerial - the sand blasted out of the bunker to the left of the green in the middle of the photo. Obviously that bunker saw a lot of action compared to the one on the right.

Pat - do you recall if the small narrow ridges along the right side of the green at the top are still there? They are repeated on the left side as well.

[T_MacWood]

Maurice McCarthy's other claim to fame was the Old Flatbush GC (mid-20s) in the heart of Brooklyn. A nine hole course with very naturalistic bunkers in the middle of NYC...the bunkers were somehat similar to the dune bunkers at Pebble Beach. I don't know what they looked like from the air.

I wonder if the Robert White attribution is right. When I saw the bazarre bunkers I thought of the Mackies, Isaac or Jack. They produced some strange work and were based in NJ if I'm not mistaken. The date I have for Green Brook is 1922.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I would have been surprised if Pat Mucci had not identified the course. He's right of course, it's Green Brook in North Caldwell, NJ.

I began playing their in the late 50's early 60's and none of those neat bunkers existed, so, sometime between 1947 and 1960 those bunkers were altered.

Like many courses they must have begun a substantive tree planting program after 1947.

The golf course is very close to Mt Ridge.

The original architect was Robert White. He did some work, perhaps most of the design, at East Potomac GC here in DC and I tried without success to see any similarities between the two courses. AoG cites a revision to Green Brook in 1925 by Maurice McCarthy who did a little design work in the NE in the 20s and 30s. His best known course is the Hershey CC course in Hershey, PA.

If you look at the hamburger shaped bunker on the left of the earlier aerial, that pattern (two semi-circles facing each other) is repeated several times at Hershey. However, the puzzle cut-outs are unique to Green Brook.

I think that's due to the parallel nature of some fairways, especially on the back nine.

At some point (when the Archives finishes archiving them:-\) I'll be able to look at 1930-era photos of northern NJ which should give a better idea of whether or not the cut-outs date back to McCarthy's revisions from the 20s.

Or perhaps there is a Green Brook member lurking?

I know many members at Green Brook, but, finding one who was there in 1947 is a very difficult task that gets harder with each passing year.

Another thing I noticed in the old aerial - the sand blasted out of the bunker to the left of the green in the middle of the photo. Obviously that bunker saw a lot of action compared to the one on the right.

I doubt that's sand splash.
That's a fairly deep bunker with a sharp face, and it's doubtful that that volume of sand could be displaced.
In addition, the contour of the land favors an approach from the right, and since most golfers sliced the ball and are usually short of their target, that back left corner of the bunker wouldn't seem to see much in the way of play.

You can also notice a similar pattern/feature at the rear of the right side bunker.

Yes, but, that's at the backside of that bunker, away from the direction of play.

My initial thoughts were that perhaps sand was piled there for insertion into the bunker, and those patterns were the remnants.

Pat - do you recall if the small narrow ridges along the right side of the green at the top are still there? They are repeated on the left side as well.

Yes, they were when I last played the golf course, but, they might have been removed recently.  I'll stop by and take a look.

That green was a two tiered green with quite a differential between the front lower and back upper portion.

Unfortunately, due to the disparity in levels, they intentionally mowed that green to a much slower speed than all the others.

The hole is a severe dogleg, from a very low tee, up to a plateau and then down to a green with sit above the fronting fairway.

Green Brook was always regarded as a quirky golf course due to dramatic elevation changes and some of their pronounced doglegs, like # 3, # 6, # 7, # 9, # 11(old)

Do you have any photos between 1947 and 1960 ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Craig,

While I haven't seen or played Green Brook, I have played quite a number of Robert White courses and would be very surprised if that's his bunkering.   While he could get a little flashy at times, it almost seemed superfluous and not purposefully so.

My strong hunch is McCarthy, as you surmise.  At Hershey CC West there are not only oodles of bunkers, but also much in the way of bunker clustering and bunker "patterns".   I also suspect some more have been lost with time.

As far as when they were removed, and by whom, it's likely that they fell victim to maintenance cost-saving measures during the depression (or possibly Tillinghast came through during his 1930s bunker removal period ), but the book, "Golf Clubs of the MGA" cites RTJ Sr. coming through in 1948, who "rebuilt a few greens and tees", and Hal Purdy who created a new par three in the 70s.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

The old 10th hole was the par 3 that was abandoned for club needs and the new 17th took it's place.

I happened to prefer the old 10th, it was a neat little hole.

The mounds around # 9 that Craig referenced can be found throughout the golf course.

If Craig's photo is from 1947 and if RTJ reworked the golf course in 1948, certainly photos from 1950 would reflect the differences, the changes made by RTJ.

I wonder, if Green Brook had a complete aerial from 1947, if they'd embark on a restoration, as their neighbor Mt Ridge successfully did ?

Craig, can you locate any 1949-1952 photos ?

Thanks

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

Thanks for clarifying.   I neglected to notice the date of Craig's aerial and assumed it was from the 20s or 30.

That would likely point to RTJ Sr., or somethng decided inhouse by some insane committee.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

The words, "insane committee" are redundant.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Pat,

Happy to be your straight man.  

[Craig Disher]

Pat,
I've had many requests for early aerials of courses in and around northern NJ but due to a plan by the Archives to convert part of the collection to microfiche (they seem unwilling to make the jump to digital imaging without first touching all intermediate bases) I've had to rely on research I did 2 years ago. I've been told that the entire collection will be available in a few weeks which will let me find out what's there. I hope there will be photos from both the 50s and the 30s. The collection doesn't include photos post-1960.

I've mentioned to others that I have been able to create a 3-D simulation (similar in principle to the old stereoscope images) when I have pairs of photos taken from different locations relative to the ground. I think I have such a pair for Green Brook   and since the quality is so good I'll see if I can put them together. Viewing requires wearing red/green glasses but it's worth the embarrassment.

[Bill_McBride]

Craig, have you researched the Dallen archives for earlier aerials?

[Craig Disher]

Pat,
I 3D'd the aerial and it shows a large fall-off on the back of the green which appears to be tilted slightly right to left. Is this similar to the way it is now? The tiers on the 9th don't show up but it could be that there is not enough height differential between them for the stero effect to work.

The fairway bunker that has the pair of semi-circles is bisected by a ridge which looks like it's veined with thin sandy areas - another idea come and gone.

Bill,
I've been to the Hagley on another mission but they don't have an aerial of Green Brook. Do you have the one of Pensacola CC?

[BCrosby]

Craig -

I assume you mean the US Archives (no?). They are converting their entire holdings to microfiche? That must have been a gargantuan and expensive job.

What possible rationale is there for not going directly to digital?

Bob

[Craig Disher]

Bob,
This is NARA - National ARchives and Records Administration. The work I'm referring to (there may be other projects that I'm not aware of) is the conversion of a large number, certainly thousands, of clear plastic sheets which contain the plots of flights taken by aircraft over the US between 1940 and 1960 to microfiche. To see if an aerial of an area exists, you lay each plastic sheet over its corresponding USGS map and check if the area has been covered by an aerial track. If it has, you note the track and use it to request the corresponding photos.

I asked one of the NARA researchers why they didn't do the simple thing and have a contractor convert all the sheets to digital files. Once digitized, laying them over a map is a simple process, probably already available in some commercial s/w. The mid-level guy told me his boss just didn't trust digitized data - and since he was retiring soon he wanted the project to finish before his last day. Fear of new technology probably played a major part in the decision, imo.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I 3D'd the aerial and it shows a large fall-off on the back of the green which appears to be tilted slightly right to left. Is this similar to the way it is now?

Craig,

Yes, there is a pronounced fall-off at the back of the green.

The terrain approaching the green sloped right to left and slightly downhill near the green, and the green did have some right to left slope in it with the backside being slightly higher than the front.[/color]

The tiers on the 9th don't show up but it could be that there is not enough height differential between them for the stero effect to work.

The height differential on the 9th green was very substantial, hence, it's possible that that green was altered post 1947.[/color]

The fairway bunker that has the pair of semi-circles is bisected by a ridge which looks like it's veined with thin sandy areas - another idea come and gone.

That's unfortunate.
I find the old bunkering schemes to be fascinating, and, they must have been very functional as well.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Craig,

I'm fascinated by what's shown in the above picture, especially since I've been playing Green Brook for 40+ years.

Can you show the balance of that photo so that I can see other bunkering schemes and greens/surrounds.

Thanks