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Agman

The early days of St. Augustine
« on: August 15, 2006, 03:29:02 PM »
The New York Times reports in its obituary of Theodore Havemeyer that shortly before his death in 1897, the USGA president went down to Florida to present two silver cups to golfers at a club in St. Augustine. Does anybody have any idea what club or clubs might have exited there then? The farthest back I've been able to find is the no longer existant St. Augustine CC, but Whitten and Cornish date that to 1905.

Thanks...

js

BCrosby

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Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2006, 05:22:03 PM »
The Ponce De Leon Golf Club? (NLE)

Phil_the_Author

Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2006, 06:41:19 PM »
Agman, here are several references to courses that were open in St. Augustine in 1897. Hopefully they will help. All are from referenced issues of The Golfer:

January 1898, The Golfer –  “At St. Augustine there is a nine hole course in the hands of the St. Augustine Golf Club, of which Mrs. Mason Young is secretary.


February 1898, The Golfer – There is an advertisement that mentions the Ponce De Leon Hotel and Links open from December through May.

These were followed up by a latter to the editor in the March 1898, The Golfer –

Golf at St. Augustine.

To the Editor of GOLF:
DEAR SIR.— In your notes on "Golf in the South" our golf links only receive passing notice. St. Augustine, though the oldest city in the United States, is always strictly -up-to-date, and therefore has its Country Club, with one of the finest links to be found in the South., It is not everywhere that enthusiastic golfers can indulge in their favorite pastime during the winter months, but in the Ancient City the weather is just right and the lovers of the sport are having lots of fun. Numerous prizes are offered for this season, including one for the best score for gentlemen on the links during the season, and one for the best score for ladies. In addition there will be weekly and monthly prizes both for men and women.
   Tourists stopping in St. Augustine can easily make arrangements for the use of the links at a moderate charge, without waiting the usual red tape of becoming a member of the club. The management of the hotels Ponce de Leon and Alcazar, together with a number of prominent citizens and cottagers of St. Augustine, have taken an active interest in this, as well as other outdoor sports, and the success of golfing, cycling, polo and other outdoor games in the club's
park is assured.
   The grounds are enclosed and located in a most beautiful portion of the city, not five minutes distant from the prominent hotels. There are nine holes, the distance between each being from 170 to 330 yards, with bunkers, hazards and; everything complete.
   Yours truly,
     FRED W. KETTLE.

Sean_Tully

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Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2006, 11:08:28 PM »


Cont'd.

There are various club prizes, chief of which is the Coxe Cup, won in 1896 by Charlton Tarnall, in 1897 by Clarence Robinson, and in 1898 by George E. Watson. President, Edmund Pendleton; vice-president, Wm. V. Chapin; treasurer, A. Van A. Winans; secretary, Mrs. Mason Young; greenkeeper, Charles Byrne.

 
ST. AUGUSTINE COUNTRY CLUB.—This is the headquarters of the Flori-
da East Coast Golf Club, who maintain a good nine-hole course here. An- nual dues, $10; one month, $5; three weeks, $4; two weeks, $3; one week, $2; one day, 50 cents. The playing distances are as follows: 1, 150; 2, 261; 3, 285 ; 4, 172; 5, 425; 6, 350; 7, 383; 8, 391; 9, 404- The turf is quite good and the course is very popular during the season, which runs from November to May. President, C. B. Knott; vice-presidents, Robert Murray, Jos. P. Greaves, A. M.. Taylor; greenkeeper, Harry Lillywhite; professional, D. H. M. Findlay.

Taken from 1899 Golf Guide.

Hope this helps.

Take at look here to see the current site. Wonder if you can still see some remnants of the old sand greens?
Current Site

Fun stuff!
Tully

wsmorrison

Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2006, 07:14:49 AM »
Interesting that the 4th played over a corner of the fort and 3 green was on the fort.  Must have had Paul Cowley's great grandfather there laying out that course?  Paul and the Loves used a faux fort on one of their courses.

BCrosby

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Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2006, 07:48:16 AM »
That's remarkable. Most of that area around the old fort is still open land. I never thought to look for the remnant of a golf course there.

Wayne -

I think the course cuts across the moat/berm around the fort. The fort's walls are shown as the more interior line. Looks like the 3rd green was placed at the top of the berm. Amazing.

Bob

ForkaB

Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2006, 08:00:52 AM »
http://www.photochrom.com/FL/51425.html

Bob

Check out the picture in the URL above.

Rich

BCrosby

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Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2006, 08:14:25 AM »
Rich -

Great get.

Bob

Agman

Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2006, 08:19:49 AM »
Thanks...

js

wsmorrison

Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2006, 08:27:29 AM »
Do you always have to be right, Bob  ;D  Well done.  And kudos to Rich for finding that great photo postcard.  

BCrosby

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Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2006, 08:53:31 AM »
Wayne -

When our kids were little I spent untold Saturday afternoons not far from the old third green (among other kid traps in SA was Gomeck the giant alligator (NLE, thank god) at the world famous St Augustine Alligator Farm), so I have home field advantage.

Now that my in-laws have moved, I don't get back to SA as often, but when I walk that area again someday I will try to pay more attention.

Bob
« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 09:10:26 AM by BCrosby »

Sean_Tully

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Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2006, 09:26:19 AM »
If someone had more time they could overlay the routing of the course over the google map when they get the scale of the fort the same. That would be the first step in locating any of the old green locations. Too bad I'm in California, i'd be game if I was closer. I just did this at the old Aetna Springs course in CA and you can still find 4 old sand greens if you look hard enough, and get some help from the Supt.!! From my research the sand greens in the south were predominantly built on a base of heavy soil then they would spread a layer of sand over the top and smooth it out. The lighter the sand the faster the green. For regular play they would have put down more sand to make the greens a little more receptive.

Cool pic, Rich!

I have some other photos of a golf course in Puerto Rico that actually played into a fort. Must have made for some interesting golf.

Tully

ForkaB

Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2006, 09:43:15 AM »
Wayne -

When our kids were little I spent untold Saturday afternoons not far from the old third green (among other kid traps in SA was Gomeck the giant alligator (NLE, thank god) at the world famous St Augustine Alligator Farm), so I have home field advantage.

Now that my in-laws have moved, I don't get back to SA as often, but when I walk that area again someday I will try to pay more attention.

Bob

Talking about great gets, well done on Gomeck!  I saw the old guy several times when I lived in Ponte Vedra (used to bring girlfriends from up north down to the Alligator Farm to see what they were made of!).  Not surprised to hear that he is NLE, but it is still sad...... :'(

BCrosby

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Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2006, 11:32:10 AM »
Rich -

We still have an inside the family joke. It goes something like -

"Well kids, we are going to _____ for spring break. What do you think?"

Pause. Squirm. Pause.

"Will it be as much fun as Gomeck?"

Bob

paul cowley

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Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2006, 07:25:16 PM »
Wayne....its really amazing to see this as I used the current fort as one of the models for the Patriot course, but interpreted in earthwork, not masonry [I expanded it a bit as it measures 800' tip to tip across the diagonals]....I had no idea that a course could have existed along side the fort....so nothing is really new.

TomP might enjoy that the rest of the routing as the plan employs obvious equestrian type hazards....dark age stuff ;)

...but then again he probably nailed something on one of its greens...it is his turf after all ;D
« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 07:31:43 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

wsmorrison

Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2006, 09:52:06 PM »
Paul,

If I know Tom its multiple nailings on multiple greens, for sure.  The stymie was in effect though.

If you didn't know it existed, it was still new to you.  So we still think of you as an innovator!

JohnV

« Last Edit: August 16, 2006, 10:07:57 PM by John Vander Borght »

Tom Walsh

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Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2006, 11:41:43 PM »
Here's a link from the library of congress-- photo ca. 1902

http://tinyurl.com/rcsa6

I think this will work

Cheers, Tom  ;D
« Last Edit: August 18, 2006, 11:48:09 PM by TomWalsh »
"vado pro vexillum!"

TEPaul

Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2006, 08:25:14 AM »
In my opinion, we can credit all this stuff basically to one man---Henry Flagler.

He essentially was the next iteration of St Augustine. He basically WAS the next iteration of the entire Florida East Coast, as we knew it when I lived and grew up there. One could even say that at one point he probably owned the whole damn thing, all the way from the Georgia border to the Keys.

How he did it and why he did it is some story.

My parents lived in St Augustine during the War and for a some years afterwards. I have a feeling I was conceived in St Augustine.

My Dad and a guy named Tom Carnegie owned a bunch of first iteration motels down there just after the War. I wish I could remember now what those things were called. They just played golf day in and day out but I guess that kind of thing (owning that chain of the first iteration of motels) made them feel like they actually worked or something.  ;)

Back in those days the Florida East Coast was pretty cool and mega amounts sleepier than now. Basically if you went about 2-3 miles west of old A!A there was nothing there down the entire Florida East Coast. There was no RTE 1 then and certainly no Sunshine State Parkway or I95. I even remember you had to take a ferry from around Amelia Island to Jacksonville on old A!A.

Flager with his Florida East Coast Railroad basically created so many "watering spots" up and down the Florida East Coast, in the end he sort of out-competed himself and some of his early northern ones began to fade as his more southern ones became popular.

My parents basically followed that evolution from St Augustine first, to Daytona Beach and then to Delray Beach much farther south.

I have a few very early recollections of St Augustine back in the late 1940s. It was real sleepy compared to now but it had a lot of real old fashioned charm as did those golf clubs there. They weren't in the slightet bit fancy or ostentatious or anything like that but they had some real style, the kind many on here would really appreciate today---eg simple and stylish.

Most of the people who were there like my Dad and Tom Carnegie and that whole crowd were some interesting people, and some were pretty ill-starred. They were the sons particularly, and the daughters of the old Northeast establishment who were kind of black sheep, they were not cut out to stay at home where they grew up and do the establishment thing. They were sort of adventurers.

And my God did they all love golf. In my opinion, they had so much more fun with it than we do today. In many ways it was an over-riding culture to them that bound them all together.

When my Dad was dying and hallucinating around 1992, where did he think he was? He thought he was around St Augustine back in those days with those guys in that obviously enchanted time for him. The War was over, he was just married and out of Philadelphia which he hated and away from his parents for good. Maybe it was in some ways the best times of his life since compared to earlier in his life and later in his life I think that maybe for the only time in his life he felt really free.

St Augustine had real charm back then and I bet fifty years earlier than that it must have been something pretty cool too---certainly for the real bad boy adventurers of life---the kind that sort of made a habit of getting far away from what their parents probably expected of them and playing golf endlessly.  ;)

What the hell would life be if it didn't have and hadn't had those kinds of eccentrics, bad boys and adventurers?

I'd say a bit duller, anyway---and our histories, particularly in golf, wouldn't have been so rich and fascinating.  

« Last Edit: August 19, 2006, 08:34:53 AM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

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Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2006, 11:28:17 AM »
Wonderful post Tom.  

I didn't spend as much time in the area as you did, but our family vacationed at the Ponte Vedra Inn in the late 50's. We rented a house on the beach and spent days at the old Beach Club. My father didn't let me play the PV course until I could break 90. It was a very big deal for me when I got to play with his group. I remember the thrill of playing the island 9th the first time. I still have a real attachment to the course.

We spent many days in and around St Augustine. There wasn't much there then.

Your recollections brought to mind an evening when my father (we were on the way back from SA, as I recall) decided to take a road west off A1A just to see where it went. The road we took was the only one we could find south of the PV Inn. Within a few yards, the pavement ended and we were on sand. Nothing but swampy jungle. It was pitch black and quite spooky. Within half a mile the road just ended. There was absolutely nothing there but thick, impenetrable palm forests. Along A1A there were miles and miles of open beach front between PV and SA. We felt like we were at the edge of civilization.

I didn't get back to PV for 15 or so years, but I'll never forget my first return visit. I could swear that the old sandy road we had taken that evening 15 years before had become the exquisitely landscaped main entrance road to the PGA headquarters and the Stadium Course.

Bob
« Last Edit: August 19, 2006, 11:36:38 AM by BCrosby »

paul cowley

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Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2006, 01:02:00 PM »
Great story Tom... I too find that period of history fascinating.
I have always had an interest in History, cultures, earth science and anything architectural....I love to discern and try to comprehend the cause and effect  and the 'why' of mans relationship between himself and his environment.
I find the area of the east coast from Charleston to southern Florida to be incredibly interesting from the pre historic period to the first half of the last century...and in that last half Flagler really was the man, not only building his RR all the way from Fernandina to Key West [a major feat] but also building the supporting infrastructure to accommodate the people his trains brought there as well.......and I like to think that much of his planning and vision for the future occured during those quiet moments he spent while playing one of his earliest creations....Fernandina Beach National.

If only its massive oak bordered fairways could speak!


...an OT note...we are fixing to flag the clearing limits at the NewArk course the first week of sept...your attendence would be greatly appreciated [hey, maybe we should rename the course the 'Covenant'....get it?... New Ark...Covenant].
I can be so clever ::).
« Last Edit: August 19, 2006, 01:03:56 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

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Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2006, 01:07:50 PM »
TP....did you see the depicted steeplechase hazards on 6 thru 9 on the St Aug course layout?
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

ForkaB

Re:The early days of St. Augustine
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2006, 01:33:44 PM »
Bob C

I knew I'd seen you somewhere before!  Our family had 2 weeks at the Ponte Vedra Inn in 1957.  That's when I first saw Gomeck.  I think Tom Paul was one of the pool boys.  My brother and I were allowed to play as my father was anything but a stickler for tradition.

Even in 1987 when I moved to Pointe Vedra for a few years, going 2-3 miles west of A1A was like entering deliverance country.  There was a great blues bar called Ward's Landing, om Palm Valley. but which when I went back there in 1995 had gone all posh.  Sic transit gloria gator tails......

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