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Patrick_Mucci

A radical idea whose time has come ?
« on: August 17, 2006, 09:23:20 PM »
Everyone talks about firm and fast fairways, but how do you determine that ?

Wouldn't stimping fairways provide a good barometer of how they're playing ?

wsmorrison

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2006, 09:29:59 PM »
Stimping would only give an indication of the speed of the fairways not the firmness which probably has more to do with overall distance, i.e. carry and roll.

ChasLawler

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2006, 09:30:49 PM »
Unfortunately the stimp doesn't measure firmness, and even if you tried to develop something that did measure firmness/bounce (the Muccimeter?), fairways are prone to have spots that are firmer than others.


Patrick_Mucci

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2006, 09:37:09 PM »
Wayne & Cabell,

You don't see an agronomic corelation between "fast" and "firm" ?

Not an absolute indicator, but, a reasonable one ?

Forrest Richardson

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2006, 09:41:58 PM »
How about landing an untralight on the fairway? This is from The Links at Las Palomas.

Requirement: Dry conditions.

http://www.gallery.alstrinphotography.com/laspalomas/data/lpdetails/pages/lp_detail_11.html




« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 09:54:25 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
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ChasLawler

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2006, 09:43:32 PM »
Wayne & Cabell,

You don't see an agronomic corelation between "fast" and "firm" ?

Not an absolute indicator, but, a reasonable one ?

Not really. The fastest (stimp-wise) fairways in my hometown are also the softest.


Patrick_Mucci

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2006, 09:56:56 PM »
Cabell,

Soft fairways usually retain a good deal of moisture, a speed retardant if one ever existed.

What golf course are you referencing that has soft, FAST fairways ?

RJ_Daley

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2006, 10:00:19 PM »
I agree with Cabell, they can run fast but be soft.

I think you are better off measuring such things as soil moisture, if you know what reading constitutes a firm and dry soil that is still viable to the turf species, given what variety the soil and turf are, and what readings indicate it is time to water.  Tensiometers and portable soil moisture meters do this.

But, isn't this all too much effort?  Why not hit a punchy 5 iron in the middle and watch if it runs a while?  ::)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 10:01:14 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Joe Hancock

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2006, 10:01:55 PM »
Pat,

You've struggled with this in the past. Fast doesn't mean firm, but firm definitely will be faster, relatively.

If it isn't maintained with brown in the mix for a sunstantial period of time (read:Years!), then I doubt the conditions are going to be as firm as what we all imagine to be ideal.

Several years ago, I played an event at Point O' Woods. The super anounced that he had quadruple mowed and double rolled greens that morning. The stimp reading was 13'4", we were told. Lo and behold, the greens were quite soft. So, I would say that is irrefutable evidence that fast doesn't equate to firm.

Joe

Edited for technical clarification on stimp reading, cuz I know Pat will come with both barrels a'blazin'!
« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 10:04:11 PM by Joe Hancock »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

ChasLawler

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2006, 10:03:06 PM »
Cabell,

What golf course are you referencing that has soft, FAST fairways ?

The course that cuts them the tightest. They're watered on a steady basis to keep them green, but the super is pretty successful at keeping the surface moisture to a minimum.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 10:04:40 PM by Cabell_Ackerly »

RJ_Daley

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2006, 10:38:58 PM »
I'm hoping Joe Hancock will come on here and give his thoughts.  The more I have been thinking about this, the more I think I might be on to something with the punchy 5 iron.  

Find a fairly precise ball striker.  Give him a 4 or 5 iron.  Have him stand about 120 yards from some 150 markers, dots or just indicate a spot on relatively flat portion of FW.  Have that striker of the ball hit 10 low shots that go about 100-110 and not too high (punchy stinger like shots).  Measure the average roll out from the point they hit the FW to the point they come to rest.  

I think that all supers should acquire the skill to hit this tester little stinger shot.  I think they ought to take this measurement on 3-6 holes throughout their course about 3X a week.  Then they ought to post the number in yards equation (average runout X yards with 4 iron hit 100 yards at <10yards high ball flight) right next to where they post their stimp meter readings... on the portajohn wall...  ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jim Thompson

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2006, 10:48:23 PM »
I've got it.

Make an air cannon, sorta like a tater gun, than can be calibrated to a specific psi.  Fire the three balls at a given angle of inflection, say thirty degrees, and measure the distance traveled.  The angle of inflection would be affected by the softness / firmness of the fairway and the subsequent roll would reflect the speed remaining after said impact.


Cheers!

JT
« Last Edit: August 17, 2006, 11:06:36 PM by Jim Thompson »
Jim Thompson

Don_Mahaffey

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2006, 10:52:29 PM »
RJ,
I know an easier test. If you need to clean your ball on the green, the course is too wet.

I played golf for a week in Scotland and I never found a ball mark or needed a towel to clean my ball. That's firm and fast.

Joe Hancock

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2006, 11:03:40 PM »
RJ,

Did you miss my post, or are you hoping for something more profound? Or funnier? Tell me what you want hear, big guy..... :)

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Craig Sweet

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2006, 11:28:11 PM »
Right now, when the heat is on, greenskeepers should be raising their height of cut...but right now is when everyone wants their course in "tournament" shape...

I am certain that stimping fairways would be as bad an idea as stimping greens....

Doug Siebert

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2006, 12:54:53 AM »
The stimp of the fairway, the firmness of the ground, and the amount of bounce a loft shot that strikes a fairway gets are all somewhat independant.

My home course switched from a bluegrass/poa mix fairway to A1 bent a few years ago, and it is mowed much tighter, so its stimp rating would undoubtedly be faster with the A1 bent.  The firmness of the ground itself is dependant on the moisture it receives, the A1 bent may require more moisture when it is really hot, but generally they don't appear to have measureably altered the amount of moisture in the ground (based on dryness of divots I observe, etc.)

The amount of initial and subsequent bounces before a shot stays on the ground and rolls the rest of the way was the biggest change.  The A1 bent is so thick and dense it is like dropping a ball in a shag carpet, so I generally get lower and fewer bounces with the A1 fairways versus what I used to get with the old fairways that were a bit more sparse -- I'm not talking bare spots here, just not so many plants per square inch.  The net result is that a high ball hitter like me sees less run with the new fairways because my initial bounce is muted even when the ground is very firm, a low ball hitter like my dad sees more run thanks to the lower cut/higher stimp of the new fairways.

The reason Scottish fairways run so much is that the ground is often hard as a rock and the grass is cut low/lays down and is extremely sparse (few plants per square inch) so everything is go for many high bounces and lots of roll after it is done bouncing.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

TEPaul

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2006, 05:00:18 AM »
"Everyone talks about firm and fast fairways, but how do you determine that?"

It's pretty simple Pat---you do it the old fashioned way by simply observing the bounce and roll-out of the golf ball. If a tee shot bounces and rolls about 40-50 plus yards the fairways are about ideally firm and fast to me.  ;)

Our super simply watches what balls are doing on fairways all the time because he's into trying to deliver firm and fast whenever weather conditions permit.

In my opinion, the first order of importance though is to get the approaches working firm and fast. In that area 20-30 yards of rollout is almost a must (weather permitting) for ideal firm and fast playability.

Ironically, I think the USGA is working on or has a type of fairway stimpmeter or firmness meter.  ;)

By the way, the "firm" part of fairways (or any other area) is the important part, not the "fast" part. Some actually think  fairways have to be cut real close to promote bounce and roll-out on tee shots and such. Obviously that has something to do with it but it's the firmness of the ground that promotes bounce and roll-out and not so much the height of cut.

To figure that out is pretty simple too Pat---you do that the old fashioned way too----just by watching to see if the ball bounces about 40-50 plus yards in the rough too.  ;)

« Last Edit: August 18, 2006, 05:06:26 AM by TEPaul »

Steve Curry

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2006, 05:16:34 AM »
Pat,

1. Firm fairways can be felt underfoot, the ball bounces on impact and rolls where it will.

I don't think there is a correlation between stimp meter readings and how dry and firm fairways are maintained as Cabel pointed out you can have very tight, fast and soft fairways.

Steve

TEPaul

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2006, 06:02:00 AM »
"I don't think there is a correlation between stimp meter readings and how dry and firm fairways are maintained as Cabel pointed out you can have very tight, fast and soft fairways."

Steve:

There really isn't much of a correlation with what we call firm and fast fairway conditions and a stimpmeter.

If some course actually goes to the trouble to cut their fairways so low that the thought of using a stimpmeter to gauge how "fast" their fairways are, or how much "speed" they have they will generally run into some real problems both agronomically and playability-wise.

I'll give you a few really good examples of that.

But first, again, firm playing conditions are the key not fairways where the ball will end up trickling around slowly like on a "fast" putting green.

Again, if a course is appropriately "fast" through the green (all areas other than tees and greens) the ball will bounce and roll a long way in the rough as well as on the fairway. Obviously that fact alone pretty much nixxes the necessity of a fairway cut that's so low or close that the ball actually starts filtering around slowly like on a fast putting green.

So back to why the latter can create both agronomic and playability problems.

Well, I just came back from the PA Open at Mystic Rock at Nemacolin Woodlands, a Pete Dye course that holds the 84 Lumber Classic.

One fairway, the 10th, is very canting right to left and the fairways are cut pretty close or tight. The 10th fairway is about 35 yards wide but unfortunately the fairway cut is so low or close that it doesn't matter where the players hit driver on that fairway, the ball will just release and filter all the way down to the left side within 2-5 steps of the left rough in a fairly small and narrow bowl.

You can imagine what that area looks like and plays like----eg it has about 100 divot marks all over it all the time. It's so bad that some players were hitting less than driver on that 435 yard hole simply to avoid that bowl and a lie in a divot hole.

That fairway is cut too close and it's too "fast". Basically you can place a ball on the high right side and it will trickle about 35 yards into that bowl on the left.

This doesn't have much to do with the firmness of those fairways which was pretty good in that tournament with bounce and roll-out of about 20-40 yards in some cases.

Those fairways needed to be mown a bit higher so a ball hit to the right of the 10th fairway would have a good chance of staying up on the high canted side of that fairway even after bouncing and rolling maybe 20-40 yards with the tee shot.

Fairways definitely don't need stimpmeters, that's for damn sure. If people start doing crap like that on fairways on some of these modern courses most all balls are going to find their way to the low spots on fairway areas and generally end up right on top of some drain head.

Who in the hell wants that?

On fairways, rough and other areas of "through the green" what you want is "firmness" to promote the bounce and roll of the golf ball. You don't need "fast" or "speed" on a fairway that requires a stimpmeter like on a green or you will create some real agronomic and playability problems on some "through the green" areas.

Pat Mucci has not been paying attention to me again. He started this thread, and, as usual, he's about 3-4 years behind times on figuring some of this stuff out. But I have no doubt he will probably defend his point that fairways need to be stimped to promote firm and fast conditions. Nothing could be farther from the truth.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2006, 06:11:50 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2006, 06:16:37 AM »
One other thing about Pete Dye's Mystic Rock at Nemacolin Woodlands.

As usual, I don't like the look of courses like that at all but I  have to admit that course, like so many others from Pete Dye, sure as hell works like a charm strategically.

That's Pete for you. He's pretty much always been that way which is why he probably is in his own special place in the evolution of golf course architecture.  ;)

His use of angles, particularly the diagonal line is about as good as it can get. And his greens are pretty cool too, certainly for greens that were stimping around 12.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2006, 06:19:00 AM by TEPaul »

Mark_Fine

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2006, 08:30:04 AM »
Pat,
I know you like to throw wierd questions out there but you are not serious with this one are you?  Didn't you ever putt on a green that rolls at 11 but is super soft  ;)  The two don't necessarily correlate and the same goes for fairways.

By the way, I have been trying to get Lehigh to sand cap all their fairways (for a measily few million dollars) so we can have firm and fast conditions more often.  For some reason the membership won't pony up the money  ;D  I'm just kidding about this of course.

Actually its funny in that for a period of about five weeks this summer, our Superintendent never turned on the irrigation - yet members still complained that the course was playing too soft and he was over watering the course.  Funny how ignorant to impact of Mother Nature that some can be!  

JESII

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2006, 09:30:01 AM »
Pat,

You've struggled with this in the past. Fast doesn't mean firm, but firm definitely will be faster, relatively.

If it isn't maintained with brown in the mix for a sunstantial period of time (read:Years!), then I doubt the conditions are going to be as firm as what we all imagine to be ideal.

Joe


Joe,

Is the brown you refer to sand?

Jeff_Brauer

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2006, 09:51:47 AM »
I am with TePaul on this one. There would have to be some unintended consequences - probably leading to even more ridiculous maintenance demands - of using a stimpmeter on a fairway.  And, eventually, fairways would have to be graded out as flat as greens are now so golfers could control the ball on the tee shot.  Do we really want that?

When I started in this biz in 1977, 10% cross slope fairways were the maximum, as a rule. That went to 7% after the Cherry Hills PGA in '78 (balls rolled into the lake on 18).  Now I hear architects talking about grading fw landing areas to 5% of less, and some use 3-4% as a maximum grade for cross slopes.  

If we don't like the look of flat greens, how will we like the look of flat fairways, esp. given that many are "too flat" by my visual and fun play standards?  Wouldn't that just reduce shot options on the tee shot and make it a more aerial game?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JESII

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2006, 10:11:55 AM »
I think there is a bit of confusion surrounding the term "firm and fast". We all seem to agree that firm means the hardness of the ground, but to some "fast" means the actual putting speed of the surface while others view "fast" as the speed a ball bounces down the fairway. Sort of a redundant synonym for firm in this context. When I speak of a firm and fast golf course I have multiple meanings for "fast". To me, "fast" can mean fast greens which I think are great (and should be a maintenance goal), and fast fairways in the synonymous with firm sense, not the putting speed sense. The putting speed of the fairways should be slow!


JESII

Re:A radical idea whose time has come ?
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2006, 10:14:26 AM »
By the way, for those of you in the Northeast USA, looking for a prime example of this concept ("FIRM AND FAST") sneak out to Huntingdon Valley sometime soon. It is off the charts.

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