[Tom Huckaby]

Eric - gotcha - my bad - somehow missed it's BT you're referring to re not being worth the return trip if it were the only one.  I can get that - it's not on the ocean, not all that "different" from many courses.  The others are.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

The thing I don't get about you types is that you love water near your course as long as it isn't in play.

[Tom Huckaby]

The thing I don't get about you types is that you love water near your course as long as it isn't in play.

To whom do you refer?  Not me, I hope....

TH

[Tim Pitner]

My take:  the three Bandon courses are all about where they should be in the top 10 publicly-acessible courses.  Pacific Dunes/Pebble Beach--a toss-up, probably.  Which is better?--the Ocean Course, Whistling Straits or Bandon Dunes?  I don't know, but I'd take BD over the Ocean Course and Bandon Trails over OC for that matter (I haven't played Straits).  You could probably make a case for Trails over Spyglass or Shadow Creek.  Anyway, it's pointless to get hung up over the exact placements, but I do believe they all belong in or near the top 10.  

[John Kavanaugh]

The thing I don't get about you types is that you love water near your course as long as it isn't in play.

To whom do you refer?  Not me, I hope....

TH

Huck,

Considering the ocean is not in play at either Bandon or Pacific Dunes and taking into account the size of the ocean why does it matter if those two courses are a thousand yards closer than Bandon Trails when saying a course is on the ocean or not.  

[Tom Huckaby]

It matters not to me, my friend.  Not in totality anyway.

But my take above was based on an impression that it does matter a lot to others.  Nearness of the ocean, having the ocean in sight for the entire course, does mean a lot to a lot of people.

Me?  It matters a lot when the ocean is actually in play - I dig that.  But that doesn't occur at any of the three Bandon courses - well said.  So it's a non-issue for me personally.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

My friend...I'm glad you are not pissed at me booting you yesterday.

[Tom Huckaby]

My friend...I'm glad you are not pissed at me booting you yesterday.

Of course not.
But why not boot me again now?  I'm being quite the overtalkative pain today - far worse than yesterday.  Boot me, save me from myself.  I'll be watching until 4pm.

 

[Dan Herrmann]

Big difference - Bandon Dunes course green fees - $$$$.  Highlands Links green fees - $.

Back to BT.  I don't like it as much as PD or BD, but it's far better than a 'good resort course'.  

I'd like somebody that's played BT and Hidden Creek (NJ) to compare and contrast the two.  I've played them each, but only once, so I don't think I'm qualified.  But I will say that I felt like I was in NJ on a couple of BT's holes.  (THIS IS NOT A BAD THING!)

[Bill_McBride]

The thing I don't get about you types is that you love water near your course as long as it isn't in play.

To whom do you refer?  Not me, I hope....

TH

Huck,

Considering the ocean is not in play at either Bandon or Pacific Dunes and taking into account the size of the ocean why does it matter if those two courses are a thousand yards closer than Bandon Trails when saying a course is on the ocean or not.  

Barney, as usual you have no idea what you are talking about - all hat and no cattle!  

You have no idea how dismaying it is to shove your drive a bit right on #4 PD and watch it dissappear down onto the beach below.

Or turn over your iron shot a bit - easy to do into a 4-club wind - on #11 PD and see the ball hop over that wonderful little skinny bunker down to the beach below.

Or duckhook a tee ball at #13 PD and - you get the picture.  

I've done #1 and been nervous about 2 and 3.  Maybe you were hitting it too pure when you were playing Pacific Dunes.  

Just curious - what public access course, readily accessible, no mandatory lodge stays, no $500 green fees, do you seriously find to be a better golf experience than Pacific Dunes?  Let me know, I can't wait to play there.

[Tom Huckaby]

Bill - of course JakaB generally is alll hat and no cattle - he intends to be - but in this case, he's correct.

There's a difference between having the ocean actually in play and hitting it over cliffs onto the cliffedge, and you as a former Santa Barbaran should know that.  Contrast the thrill and inspiration one gets at Cypress Point 15-16-17 or Pebble 7 or 18 with any of those holes at Pacific Dunes.... Oh sure, at the very bottom line a penalty stroke is a penalty stroke...But at least for me, the thought of the ball actually going perklunk just gives more inspiration.  Being that much closer to the actual water is just really neat.  This is no huge knock on PD - it's not that big of a deal - but when he says the ocean is not in play there, he's correct.  The cliffs are, maybe the beach is (although it takes one hell of an awful shot to get it down to the sand), but the ocean is not.

And as for a greater golf experience, I will cite Pebble Beach and be very confident in that assessment.  But then again I have never paid $500 to play there, and never will. But careful basing this on price... before too long the two courses will be very comparable.  Count on it.

TH

[PThomas]

And as for a greater golf experience, I will cite Pebble Beach and be very confident in that assessment.  But then again I have never paid $500 to play there, and never will. But careful basing this on price... before too long the two courses will be very comparable.  Count on it.

TH

God I hope you are wrong about the price thing Huck

[Tom Huckaby]

Paul - have you followed the increases since each course opened?

it's not a large stretch at all to think that such won't continue, especially now that PD achieved its first #1 ranking... when the 4th course comes, well...

Perhaps I ought not to be so pessimistic, but want to bet against PD charging over $300 by this time next year?  $500 in two-three years?

TH

[PThomas]

Paul - have you followed the increases since each course opened?

it's not a large stretch at all to think that such won't continue, especially now that PD achieved its first #1 ranking... when the 4th course comes, well...

Perhaps I ought not to be so pessimistic, but want to bet against PD charging over $300 by this time next year?  $500 in two-three years?

TH

Bill and Huck:  
I know it's not a stretch, I just hope it doesn't get to the Pebble-level, cause if it does I won't go, esp snce I've been there 3 times already

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Bill, lets get back to the article. What is a decent resort course? I am certainly not a David Kid fan and I will flatly state Bandon Dunes is not a decent resort course either. It is a top line resort course as is Bandon Trails. America is full of decent resort courses and many of them are in Arizona, Palm Springs and Florida. That is all you can say about them. Bandon trails stands head and shoulders above them. C&C's course at Barton Creek is much closer to a decent resort course type comment. I am amazed any responsible writer could lump any course in at Bandon without in fact slmaing the whole resort golf industry. I also left out the hundreds of decent resort courses in the Midwest which are even closer to having that as an accurate description.

[Tim Pitner]

I'll take that bet, Tom.  The price increases have been relatively modest in the last five years.  Considering you pay $300+ for Whistling Straits, the $185 you pay for the Bandon courses is reasonable.  I also think the Bandon folks understand that it doesn't make sense for them to elevate one course over the others.  That's one of the best things Bandon has going for it, that the three courses are roughly of the same quality.  That's a lot of inflation to go from $185 to $500.  

[Bill_McBride]

Bill - of course JakaB generally is alll hat and no cattle - he intends to be - but in this case, he's correct.

There's a difference between having the ocean actually in play and hitting it over cliffs onto the cliffedge, and you as a former Santa Barbaran should know that.  Contrast the thrill and inspiration one gets at Cypress Point 15-16-17 or Pebble 7 or 18 with any of those holes at Pacific Dunes.... Oh sure, at the very bottom line a penalty stroke is a penalty stroke...But at least for me, the thought of the ball actually going perklunk just gives more inspiration.  Being that much closer to the actual water is just really neat.  This is no huge knock on PD - it's not that big of a deal - but when he says the ocean is not in play there, he's correct.  The cliffs are, maybe the beach is (although it takes one hell of an awful shot to get it down to the sand), but the ocean is not.

And as for a greater golf experience, I will cite Pebble Beach and be very confident in that assessment.  But then again I have never paid $500 to play there, and never will. But careful basing this on price... before too long the two courses will be very comparable.  Count on it.

TH

Huck, there really aren't any cool coves or other opportunities to play ACROSS the ocean at either PD or BD. But the feeling of standing on the 4th tee with the fear of a slice going down the cliffs is palpable, and so is the fear of a dreaded pull-hook into the wind at #11.

I'm afraid you are becoming jaded.  

I repeat my question of Barney, which of course he won't answer, what truly accessible course -- no mandatory lodge stay, etc, -- matches Pacific Dunes?  I think that's why it squeaked past Pebble into first place.

Would I prefer to play Pebble or Pacific?  That is a great question, even if I'm asking it of myself.  I would definitely prefer to play the Pebble Beach of 1960 - no continuous cart paths, no wall-to-wall tee times, no five hour rounds, carrying your own bag - but that's impossible.   Walk at Pacific Dunes with a caddy or on your own with no cart paths?  Yes, I think that's what I'd prefer to do today.

[Eric Olsen]

The article in which Keiser talked about building more courses affordable to Oregonians etc made me concerned that they will end up increasing the costs of Bandon even more.  Winter is still the best bet, and hopefully an increases will be tempered in the part of the year.  

[Tim Pitner]

Bill, lets get back to the article. What is a decent resort course? I am certainly not a David Kid fan and I will flatly state Bandon Dunes is not a decent resort course either. It is a top line resort course as is Bandon Trails.

Tiger,

I'm wondering why you say that you're not a David Kidd fan.  Bandon Dunes isn't above criticism, but have you played any of his other courses?  Why "not a David Kidd fan" rather than "not a Bandon Dunes fan"?

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

You're on.  Stakes TBD.  I shall be watching the prices, as I too wish to keep going back there every couple years.  

Bill:

I am FAR from jaded - hell I love Pacific Dunes!  I'm mortgaging my future to go back there in Feb. 07. It's just wrong the say the ocean is in play there.  Is the ocean in play at Sandpiper?  And how is PD anything different than Sandpiper in terms of this small issue?  I don't know about you, but when I cite courses where the ocean's in play, I sure as hell don't cite these two, or Torrey Pines, or a few others on our coast that hang above the cliffs.  And I'll answer your question to Barney:  Pebble Beach.  Play it comped, early, walking with your own bag and it's not even that close.  Of course that's not possible for many, and the realities of golf at Pebble do make this turn in favor of PD, and that's not very close either.  But base it just on the golf courses - making each gratis, and if you still say PD, well.... 'tis you who have become too jaded... or dare I say too much of a Doak butt-boy.

Just beating Barney to the punch there.
 

[John Kavanaugh]

Bill,

In all seriousness and not just for the sake of argument I think both the Ocean Course at Kiawah and Pinehurst #2 are better resort courses without mandatory stays than Pacific Dunes.

These are courses I have played..

[Bill_McBride]

John, I haven't played the Ocean Course so no opinion there; I have played #2 and would definitely prefer Pacific Dunes.  Although I prefer Pinehurst's Pine Crest Inn to the hospitality equivalents at Bandon!  

These are all issues of individual opinion and therefore not for argument.  That's what makes the world go round!

[Bill_McBride]

Tim:

You're on.  Stakes TBD.  I shall be watching the prices, as I too wish to keep going back there every couple years.  

Bill:

I am FAR from jaded - hell I love Pacific Dunes!  I'm mortgaging my future to go back there in Feb. 07. It's just wrong the say the ocean is in play there.  Is the ocean in play at Sandpiper?  And how is PD anything different than Sandpiper in terms of this small issue?  I don't know about you, but when I cite courses where the ocean's in play, I sure as hell don't cite these two, or Torrey Pines, or a few others on our coast that hang above the cliffs.  And I'll answer your question to Barney:  Pebble Beach.  Play it comped, early, walking with your own bag and it's not even that close.  Of course that's not possible for many, and the realities of golf at Pebble do make this turn in favor of PD, and that's not very close either.  But base it just on the golf courses - making each gratis, and if you still say PD, well.... 'tis you who have become too jaded... or dare I say too much of a Doak butt-boy.

The comparison won't take place for me - I won't play Pebble under the current conditions.  Now Cypress Point, there's a whole nother story!

[John Kavanaugh]

Let's not forget that Golf Digest has Pacific Dunes ranked 22nd in the country behind three resort courses and a fine 21st course.  It is not infallible in everyones eyes.

[Tom Huckaby]

Bill:

Never say never.
But of course you do have imagination, right?

Make the comparison taking out price and crowds.

Then tell me PD is superior.  

You can't.

And I have played PB like that.  

TH

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