Odd Comment by Nicklaus

[Greg Beaulieu]

I was watching the end of the Canadian Skins Game today, held at the classic Stanley Thompson Banff Springs course in Alberta, and won by John Daly. Here's a link to a short discussion:

http://scoregolf.com/blog/bob-weeks/2006/August/Daly-a-man-possessed-on-Day-two-of-Skins.cfm

After the round, TV interviewed the participants. Jack Nicklaus said (I'm paraphrasing): "I hadn't been to Banff before, wanted to see it; and I knew it was a Stanley Thompson course, hadn't seen one before. Nice course."

I found it mind-boggling that a designer of Nicklaus' stature hadn't seen a Thompson course in all his years in the game and in the design business. I'm sure I heard what he said correctly.

The course looked great on TV, BTW.

[Wayne_Kozun]

After the round, TV interviewed the participants. Jack Nicklaus said (I'm paraphrasing): "I hadn't been to Banff before, wanted to see it; and I knew it was a Stanley Thompson course, hadn't seen one before. Nice course."

I found it mind-boggling that a designer of Nicklaus' stature hadn't seen a Thompson course in all his years in the game and in the design business. I'm sure I heard what he said correctly.

Jack finished second at the 1968 Canadian Open at St. Georges so he has played at least one Thompson course before.  (He may have also played in the 1960 Canadian Open also at St. Georges)

Most of the Canadian Opens that Nicklaus played in would have been played on a course designed by a GCA far superior to Thompson, at least in Jack's opinion  That 68 Canadian Open appears to have been the only one held at a Thompson course from 1961-now.  Hard to believe!

I saw the interview as well and they way that I heard it he was saying that he hadn't seen the Banff course, before rather than Thompson courses in general.

[cary lichtenstein]

Nicklaus in an interview not too long ago said that he has never seen a course that he wasn't playing in a tournament.

[Gary Daughters]

I believe I read that Nicklaus has never seen Camargo even though it's in his home state.  The reference came up within the context of Jack's being something less than motivated to either see or study the classics.. again, as long as he's not competing on them.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Has Jack Nicklaus ever played a Tom Doak course?

[Tom_Doak]

Mike S:  If you don't count Sebonack as being "mine", then no, he hasn't played any of my courses.

I do believe he's played Camargo, but I won't swear to it.  It certainly wasn't in recent years that he went there.

Still, the man has something like 40 courses under construction around the world right now, how much time do you think he has for looking at others?

[Gary Daughters]

Jack seems comfortable in his own shoes.

And in those shoes, who wouldn't be?

[A.G._Crockett]

What Jack said in the interview a year or so back was that he hadn't studied the work of any other architects, AND had seen very few if any courses that he had not played.  The tone of the interview sounded anything but regretful.

I wish I had the time to go find the thread; that interview was discussed at length here, as you might imagine.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike S:  If you don't count Sebonack as being "mine", then no, he hasn't played any of my courses.

Tom,

The real question of course is what does Jack think in reference to Sebonack.

I can understand all of the above about the "dead guys" but in a million years, I can't see why Jack Nicklaus would not have sought out one of your courses during the design process. Let's say for arguments sake he arrogantly considered you the 'lead designor' on the Sebonack project, similar to the lead designor from the Nicklaus Organization on the other 40 projects. Let's also be clear that the other 40 projects do not sit in Southampton, NY next to two historic courses.

Has he ever hired a lead designor without seeing their work, including his sons?

Has any creative CEO in any field ever hired a lead designor without seeing their work. Think Calvin Klein, IM Pei......

I know you really don't want to hear these questions right now. Everyone has said that Sebonnack has turned out great, so it worked. However if you weren't involved in Sebonnack, my guess is that type of intellectual laziness would make you crazy behind the scenes.

[wsmorrison]

Jack Nicklaus played Pine Valley on his honeymoon in at least one non-tournament round.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Jack Nicklaus played Pine Valley on his honeymoon in at least one non-tournament round.

Presumably he has played non-tournament rounds at some of the courses that he has designed as well!

[A.G._Crockett]

Jack Nicklaus played Pine Valley on his honeymoon in at least one non-tournament round.

Wayne,
The reference was to not seeing courses he didn't play, whether the playing was tournament or not; in other words seeing them for study purposes only.  You probably remember the VERY lengthy discussion here of Nicklaus not seeing Sand Hills before starting Dismal River.

[wsmorrison]

I was simply responding to Cary's post with one example that disproved that statement.  That is all.

"Nicklaus in an interview not too long ago said that he has never seen a course that he wasn't playing in a tournament."

[Mike_Young]

I believe I read that Nicklaus has never seen Camargo even though it's in his home state.  The reference came up within the context of Jack's being something less than motivated to either see or study the classics.. again, as long as he's not competing on them.

Gary,
If I am not mistaken he once qualified for the US Am there....

[Gary Daughters]

Mike,

Nice call.  I've tried to find the reference I, uh, referenced, but have so far come up emtpy.

[Mark Hissey]

Jack's schedule is tough to comprehend. Practically every minute of every day is accounted for. It would be extremely difficult for him to just take some time out and visit courses. Of course, he could prioritize differently, but he has chosen not to.

Jack will be the first to admit that he learned something from building Sebonack and of course, Tom was responsible for that. During the project, there were numerous anecdotes of how he loved the style (and I'm sure Tom could relate for more to you), but his comments about how the fairways reminded him of a UK course gave a good indication of how proud he was to be involved.

On one site visit, Jack was going to Scotland that night with many of his design team. He was eager to show them Sebonack because he wanted ND to start creating the look on other courses. He then asked of I could arrange for him to see Friars Head which I duly arranged. Well, he loved the place and apparently it was his first course visit without playing in over 20 years.

Jack has a reputation of being arrogant. Well, I never saw it. I always thought he was gracious, intuitive and curious. A pleasure to work with in fact.

[Dan Herrmann]

Slightly related question.

A new private course is opening out here in the far western burbs of Philadelphia.  The ads for the course state that it's a Nicklaus Design - the first in SE Pennsylvania!

However, its designer is Mike Nicklaus, Jack's son, and a member of the Nicklaus design team.

Do you think the owners of the course are misrepresenting the course's pedigree?

(I do)

[Jim Nugent]

"Nicklaus in an interview not too long ago said that he has never seen a course that he wasn't playing in a tournament."

Wayne -- I'm pretty sure I read not long ago that Jack said he has no interest in playing non-competitive golf.  

[George Pazin]

Dan, someone once posted a link on here to a Nicklaus Design page which detailed the working arrangements, and the specifics were quite clear. If a golfer is somehow misled by the statement you offered, I'd say it's mostly incumbent upon him to learn the facts. Caveat emptor. It's really no different than any of the other player/design associations out there.

Thanks, Mark, for offering an informed perspective.

Hardly having enough time to see new courses - yet another thing Jack and I have in common!

[TaylorA]

Mike S:  If you don't count Sebonack as being "mine", then no, he hasn't played any of my courses.

Tom D, I'd be curious to know how he had formed his opinion of your work given the level of project the two of you were working on. Since he hadn't seen your work previously, was there an "ah-ha!" moment when he "got" your design style and construction methods? Did he simply trust your opinions and ideas based on reputation?

[SteveC]

This raises a question or two - perhaps asked before here - about how much the pros - particularly the top pros - actually care about GCA. Would they go out of their way to play a hidden gem? Do they wish they could play the classic courses on tour, or just for fun? Seems like, when I mention to a friend and very well-known ex-pro who's still involved in the game that I had a chance to see or play a certain gem, he gives me the "oh, that's nice" routine, as opposed to "darn, I'd love to play there."  know it's a job, but I'd like to think their blood would run a bit hotter at the prospect of playing, for instance, Yeamans Hall or Fishers Island, but you never hear about those rounds, if they're played, or the scores posted. I mean, doesn't eveyone want to play NGLA?

[Mike_Sweeney]

I mean, doesn't eveyone want to play NGLA?

I mentioned this a few months back. I had dinner in April with my friends Dad who will soon be 50 years at Merion Golf Club. His #1 course that he wants to play is Shinnecock. When I told him that my favorite course is National, he asked, "Where is that?"

This GCA insanity is much smaller than we think, IMHO.

[Greg Tallman]

Slightly related question.

A new private course is opening out here in the far western burbs of Philadelphia.  The ads for the course state that it's a Nicklaus Design - the first in SE Pennsylvania!

However, its designer is Mike Nicklaus, Jack's son, and a member of the Nicklaus design team.

Do you think the owners of the course are misrepresenting the course's pedigree?

(I do)

Dan,

What are they misrepresenting? The golf course is created by Nicklaus Design who as a company differentiate such designs from those involving Jack directly by labeling Jack's courses Jack Nicklaus Signature designs.

Jack's name carries a lot more marketing power than the company name and thus the price tag for a signature is many times higher than a Nicklaus Design.  

They also tightly control the manner in which the brands are promoted. The course you mention could not mention Jack by name in a promotional piece... perhaps if they are identfying Michael as the son of Jack.

[A.G._Crockett]

I mean, doesn't eveyone want to play NGLA?

I mentioned this a few months back. I had dinner in April with my friends Dad who will soon be 50 years at Merion Golf Club. His #1 course that he wants to play is Shinnecock. When I told him that my favorite course is National, he asked, "Where is that?"

This GCA insanity is much smaller than we think, IMHO.

Mike,
I agree with you about the relatively small portion of the golf world that has much interest in GCA; that has been my experience among my friends and contacts as well.

BUT (and this is a big but!) I have a lot of trouble imagining a tour pro, much less one interested in, or participating in, or making a living from GCA to feel that way.  That I cannot comprehend.

It reminds one of the commercials.  "No, I haven't systematically studied my craft and the work of other masters, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!"

[Dan Herrmann]

Greg,
Everybody I know that sees the club's literature assumes that Jack is involved.  Plus, from what I've seen (and I could be wrong!), Pulte (the developer) isn't doing anything to dispell that notion