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T_MacWood

Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2006, 10:49:57 AM »
You can say that until the cows come home, but in addition to manners, I really don't see how I would necessarily learn from other gca's critiquing my work in public and I doubt that most golfers would.  The private critiques I hear could usually be summed up as "I would have done it differently", which is an entirely predictable situation.  

Are you saying no one would learn anything from your explanation of why you would have designed, redesigned or restored a hole or course in a different way? Thats not saying much about your ideas.

And I'm not talking about hearsay...the most hard hitting critics of golf architects are other golf architects...privately. Not usually personal attacks but well reasoned criticism based on first hand knowledge...criticism that would be educational to anyone interested in gca.

Are you saying that you have never criticized the work of other architects?

Critics are held to the same standards as those they are critiquing (aren't you critiquing Shackelford with this thread?). Some of the most interesting exchanges in gca occured between Alister MacKenzie and Joshua Crane, the critic. MacKenzie hammered him pretty good. Crane also got into with a fellow critic Darwin. Anyone interested in gca can learn a great deal about MacKenzie's design philophies from these exchanges (likewise one can learn from Crane's and Darwin's as well).

I'm not sure what the bylaws state exactly or when the prohibition went into effect but the last good architect vs architect public debate was between RTJ (ASGCA) and Dick Wilson (nonmember). That was a doosy. The last two architects with a connection to the golden age too.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 10:55:29 AM by Tom MacWood »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2006, 11:46:24 AM »
ASGCA/CODE OF PROFESSIONAL ETHICS

Vlll.

Members shall recognize and respect the work of other golf course architects and shall not knowingly make false statements or offer opinions and comments that are false or attempt to injure or disparage their practice, or any of their work.

....just good manners set out for a peer group of competing professionals who on a very limited and occasional basis wish to fraternize and exchange ideas and get to know others in their field of endeavor.
If someones needs are such that he or she can't operate within these broadly defined guidelines then they probably would get little benefit from joining.

 And I would add that respect for others goes well with good manners.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 11:47:42 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2006, 11:53:08 AM »
...and the fact that they let me in [well almost], says a lot.... because I'm hardly Conformity's poster child.

I do have a problem empathising with this critic thing though, because personally my creative drive allows for constant criticism and evaluation of myself and all that surrounds me....its the only way I can see the world and I convert this energy to knowledge and design.

Expending this same energy by criticizing others is an exercise I just don't get or have a need for....but I welcome it when it comes my way....silly world really...tah tah, must go to swamp :).  
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 12:27:28 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2006, 12:03:52 PM »
Paul,

Thanks for that post.  Tom Doak can rest easy now.

Tom Mac,

The critiques from other gca's I have learned from have been very, very specific.  Pete Dye contours cup areas less than 2.25% (I had to do some math to get to that) Mike Hurdzan's minimum is 1.5% because he had some ice damage on a green in Ohio once.  I hear those in conversations at ASGCA, along with some critiques and questions of those few members who have played my courses.  No general read publication would publish an article saying that Paul Cowley thinks my bunkers should be 6" closer to the greens, and few gca's would take the time to write such a thing!

What does an exchange between Mac and Cheese, er Crane, have to do with public exchanges between golf architects, BTW?

Anyone notice my new tag line? I heard that the other day, and it kind of sums up my thoughts on critics anyway.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 12:05:01 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

T_MacWood

Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2006, 12:46:01 PM »
Was RTJ out of line when he said: "Wilson copies a lot of our ideas. The long tees, the flanked trapping. We got a lot of fun out of this last year when we were putting in the CC of Miami and Wilson was near by building Doral. He's come over our course, take a look at some of things we were doing, then run back to and put the same things in at Doral."

Jeff
You said: "I do find it funny that people find a way to turn a legitimate question about standards for critiques in the golf design industry back to the same old topics, while many seem hesitant to propose/endorse/consider what standards those who do critique courses professionally should hold themselves to.  Of course, most of you want to just simply "let it fly" but that is really no standard at all, is it? "

My point is critics are also open to criticism, you don't need a standard. Crane made his case and MacKenzie made his opposing case. If you don't agree with what Shackelford wrote you are free to make your own opposing case. Thats my point regarding your proposed standard for critics...architects criticizing other architects is another issue.

Are you claiming you have never criticized another architect?

Would a publication devoted to golf or golf architecture publish an article in which you said Dye's practice of concluding his designs with a par-3 17th and par-4 18th is overly repetitive and formulaic? Or would they publish an article in which you questioned the widespread redesign practices of Nugent & Killian in Chicago?

Who is James Oliver?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 12:49:23 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2006, 02:31:57 PM »
Jeff:

Glad to see that the ASGCA code is ethically up to date for all architects.  You had me worried!

Mike Y:

The biggest can of worms in your many-ended list of questions for critiques is whether or not a design was "economically feasible."

On the one hand, I suppose every design must be feasible or it never could have gotten built for someone to critique it.  Yet, certainly many projects (many more than the public is aware of) are bottom-line failures.  I used to think that was partly the architect's responsibility, but after twenty years in the business, I've seen lots of projects  which were never conceived with the primary goal of making money, and it's not architectural malpractice to take such a job.  So, I've come around to thinking that is a matter of "buyer beware" -- even though, if no one ever says anything about the coincidence of economic failures to a particular architect's work, the buyer is unlikely to be aware.

I once made the mistake of saying to Pete Dye that a certain architect's work must be okay because none of them ever went bankrupt, and he quickly ticked off a list of a half-dozen courses by that architect which had failed.  But, that was before the S&L crisis made Landmark a "failure".

Tom MacWood:

The need for this argument is really lost on me.  Instead of defending the right to criticism, just do it ... if a critic's views have merit they will find an audience.  However, it would be nice if we had more critics who really recognized the issues of each design and addressed what actually had been built, instead of lamenting what was not built.  And it isn't a level playing field -- the critic generally has the support of some publication to make his views known, while the objector does not always have the same platform.

As to your last questions, I don't know the answer.  Most publications I've seen have little interest in dissecting the work of an architect on any basis other than one course at a time.  Generalizations can be misleading, which is why it's nice that some architects come here and we can ask them direct questions about why they did something a certain way.  

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2006, 02:54:08 PM »
Tom,

I don't think I have said that I never have criticised another gca. In fact, I can think of a few posts here which would be considered critiques.  Also, I really don't know who James Oliver is. My health club rotates inspirational quotes around the walls, and last week I saw that one, and I thought I should attribute it. He could be a local drunk for all I know......but, IMHO, it applies to who is more important in golf design - the doers or the critiquers (or even Tour Pro "editors".

I didn't suggest any standards for critics, other than that any gca who did so should hold himself to a higher standard.  Nor do I have any problem with a point counter point with Geoff or anyone else in a publication, providing it addresses an issue. An editor even suggested that once after Geoff and I had some discussion or another here.

I really didn't suggest anything other than I find Geoff's writings to be getting predictable.  Its just my opinion, but he has written much/most of his stuff in the same vein for a decade now.  (Just like some gca's design the same hole over and over again)

Some have suggested that he has principles and should stick to them.  I simply wondered if writers can change their outlook to freshen their material, just as a gca might freshen his outlook by taking a trip to see classic courses.  I actually liked your idea that a critic should go study Darwin to see how the masters do it, for example!  

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2006, 03:04:07 PM »
Couldn't find that exact quote on google in a brief try, but the most quotable James Oliver is apparently a celebrity chef named Jamie Oliver -- "one of the most controversial celebrity chefs around" -- maybe he doesn't like the Guide Michelin.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2006, 03:05:11 PM »
Jeff:

Glad to see that the ASGCA code is ethically up to date for all architects.  You had me worried!

Mike Y:

The biggest can of worms in your many-ended list of questions for critiques is whether or not a design was "economically feasible."


Tom,
"Economically feasible "to me doesn't necessarily mean they make money but that they fit in the puzzle.  I had one where the owner just wanted to make sure it didn't cost him more than $1million a year out of his pocket.  And he stays right about there.  It is his sandbox.  
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2006, 03:34:06 PM »
Mike,

That's a tricky question.  I don't think gca's are qualified as financial analysts, nor do we control how they spend money.  If we design to their criteria, that should be the sum of our responsibility, no?

As the depression and recent events show, even good designs (think Lido or Mill Run) can fail under tough conditions, and when things change over time.  I generally agree with your point, though.  Nothing lasts forever, but you would like it to make it through the first season at least!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2006, 08:20:00 PM »
Who is James Oliver??

The only James Oliver I know was a shaper that got tired of building jagged bunkers and became a rater for a prominent golf magazine before he wrote a golf architecture book and started playing golf.

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

T_MacWood

Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2006, 10:57:22 PM »
Tom MacWood:

The need for this argument is really lost on me.  Instead of defending the right to criticism, just do it ... if a critic's views have merit they will find an audience.  However, it would be nice if we had more critics who really recognized the issues of each design and addressed what actually had been built, instead of lamenting what was not built.  And it isn't a level playing field -- the critic generally has the support of some publication to make his views known, while the objector does not always have the same platform.


Tom
I agree the need to argue for free expression is pretty strange, you would have thought in this country we would have gotten past the idea that a critics voice should be tempered, but it appears Jeff would like to put some control over criticism of golf architects.

It might not be level playing field but whose fault is that...the ASGCA has prohibited criticism (including response to criticism). They have little or no voice in the media which is another negative consequence of their policy. On the other hand its never been easier to get your view point out with advent of the Internet and blogs. Jeff B is responding to G. Shackelford on GCA.

T_MacWood

Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2006, 11:10:24 PM »
Jeff
I know James Oliver aka Jamie Oliver aka the Naked Chef. Part celebrity chef part sex symbol (big part sex symbol). He had a short lived TV show on the Food channel (perhaps two shows).

I recall watching another series on PBS about a popular Italian restuarant in London where I spotted him, it was the show that got him discovered...I think he washed dishes or was the assistant to the assistant to the assistant to the associate chef. I've watched a number of Naked Chef shows and I think I know why he said what he said...you and I are better cooks than he is.

You exude a certain sex appeal....you could be the Naked Golf Architect.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 11:24:42 PM by Tom MacWood »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #63 on: August 13, 2006, 12:57:35 AM »
Tom,

I resented you twisting my words this afternoon. I resent the heck out of it now that you ignore the facts and twist them again.

Instead of spouting your opinion regardless, please read the posts you respond to.

I never argued against free expression.  The title of the thread isn't "critics control" or anything like that.  And I am not responding to Geoff, but asking a question.  Lastly, I think you misconstrue the ASGCA code, despite Paul Cowley posting a word for word copy.

If I were arguing for standards for critics, it wouldn't be your standard, which from your posts, appears to be "if you tell a lie long enough, cloak it in principles, maybe someone will believe it."

And PS, don't ever call me the "naked architect." I thought Mike Young had that title taken, although he does pronounce it "Nekked." ;)

PPS, if my quote comes from a celebrity chef, it probably makes sense. They probably do have running battles with the newspaper restaurant critics.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2006, 01:10:52 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2006, 03:31:50 AM »
Actually, as I read it, the ASGCA ethics guidelines do not prohibit honest judgment by members of other members' works or of the work of other architects. They only admonish against slanderous or libelous criticism, i.e. willful bad-mouthing. But open, honest, thoughtful judgment is certainly allowed by those terms. My bet is that most ASGCA members have hidden behind the misinterpretation in order to avoid being criticized themselves by their peers.

The larger point of this thread that Jeff Brauer started is very important. The real question here is whether critics, in the course of educating their readers about their own judgments, are obliged in the process to keep learning. I taught for 14 years at the university level, including several standard courses I taught every year that were about the classics (history of political philosophy, U.S. foreigh policy), and each semester I would reread the classic texts and revise my notes and my lectures. Professors whose notes got stale and dusty and never upgraded them got predictable, boring, and students stopped showing up.

Another analogy, from the world of editing (i.e. I really think of myself as a golf course editor, and work that way in the field with designers  and when writing reviews). The idea (above) that some critics prefer comedies is literally laughable when in the face of a drama, historical narrative or biography. What do they say, the book is lousy because it's unfunny? That's like critiquing a parkland course and saying it is lousy because it's not a links course or that it doesn't overlook the ocean. In other words, criticism has to be specific to some work of art.

The job of an editor in the early process is to help the author shape the best possible work consistent with what the author is trying to do. The editor's job with a manuscript is to help the author realize his vision -- assuming, as they should have done in pre-editing, that the vision is sound but now needs basically (just) to be tweaked. And the critic's job in reviewing the text is to see what the author was trying to do and how well they achieved it. At that point, the critic doesn't dismiss the work because it wasn't a drama or humorous. One might as well dismiss a biography because it wasn't a cookbook.

If, as Jeff Brauer, Mike Young and a few others agree, a critic's work gets predictable, that is not very good criticism. It becomfs dogma, or propaganda, or special pleading on the part of some one style. Good crticism ought to be sensitive to site-specific design, and while it doesn't have to endorse every project, it needs to explain the strengths and weaknesses and to educate along the way so that the reviewer's standards are clear and the reader can learn something in the process beyond how clever a writer the reviewer is. Most of what passes for "criticism," esp. in the regional press, is mindless fluff, or some writer's attempt to go hole by hole with "shots of the pros." That stuff is generally worthless criticism.

The serious stuff requres a lot more work than most people think. Coming from a tradition of academia, I think there's great merit in that line of work, and that there is nothing to apologize for if you combine a respect for classical writing (Darwin, Wind) with an ability to spend time in the field talking with (not talking at, not just listening to) architects, superintendents, owners, g.m's, golf pros.

I think a good sign of a good critic is the ability to talk in the field and play golf with designers across the spectrum, and that includes people whose work you don't necessarily like. Some of the people who get regularly bashed here have a lot to say about design, and they are obviously successful for a reason. Even if I don't like their aesthetic sensibility I will learn something from them as designers, engineers, businessmen, or people-persons. The sign of a predictable, stale writer is that he ends up talking (and quoting from) the same small circle of people. The sign of vibrant, thinking and creative critic is that he spends more time with the folks he disagrees with and is willing to do mental and intellectual battle with them rather than dismiss them. Just like the best conservatives know their Marxists and their liberals; the best golf course critics are thoroughly versed and can learn from the folks they most disgree with.

But they also have to be able to learn and evolve over time, or at least to refine and diversify their views. And to surprise their readers every once in a while without being predictable.

That's why, ultimately, JWL (above, page 1) is, in my view, wrong about criticism, There is great nobility in being innovative and original in writing and rendering judgments, and it has an important place in explaining to golfers and educating them about what is good work and bad work. Otherwise, all we'd have to rely upon is press releases or those mindless "hole-by hole" accounts in the local fawning press.



« Last Edit: August 13, 2006, 03:18:21 PM by Brad Klein »

TEPaul

Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2006, 03:59:10 AM »
I certainly don't think a Geoff Shackelford should change his paradigm or needs to. Geoff is an advovate for a certain type and style of golf architecture, and so what? That's probably a very good thing.

But in my opinion, Geoff and others who advocate some particular type or style of architecture as he does, should recognize that that type or style may not somethingthat all golfers enjoy or ever will.

I believe in what I refer to as the "Big World Theory" of golf course architecture---eg that there should be something out there to suit all tastes, no matter what that may be.

That doesn't mean that I don't personally prefer or endorse a particular type and style but whom am I, or who is anyone else, to be telling the rest of the world that they shouldn't have what they seem to enjoy?

To me there is a caveat here, though, and that is that the world of golf needs to know better that since diversity of type and style of architecture is probably a very good thing that not all architecture should be treated and particularly maintained in some "one size fits all" fits all way as has seemingly been done so much in the past.

And hence the idea of the "Ideal Maintenance Meld", that is, at the very least, intended to make a distinction between the ways various types and styles of architecture need to be maintained to make their inherent designs play as well as they were architecturally intended to.

T_MacWood

Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2006, 09:14:21 AM »

I do find it funny that people find a way to turn a legitimate question about standards for critiques in the golf design industry back to the same old topics, while many seem hesitant to propose/endorse/consider what standards those who do critique courses professionally should hold themselves to.  Of course, most of you want to just simply "let it fly" but that is really no standard at all, is it?


Jeff aka The Nekked Golf Architect

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood what you were saying. When I hear you propose that golf architecture critics could be placed under a new 'standard' I'm thinking those who don't follow this 'standard' (whatever it would be) would presumably face some kind of consequence. It would seem to me that this consequence or penaltly or whatever would have an effect on critical golf architecture expression. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were getting at.

You combine my understanding (perhaps miskaken) of your potential 'standard' for critics with the current situation which now prevents ASGCA members from expressing themselves freely (in a critical way) and the result is bad in my view...a further limitation on the free exchange of ideas, which is unhealthy for golf architecture IMO.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2006, 09:39:31 AM »



Jeff aka The Nekked Golf Architect

Quote

Tom,
No no no...I am the Nekked Golf Architect
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

T_MacWood

Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2006, 09:48:56 AM »
Brad
Could you point me to an article written by a ASGCA member that critically analyzes the work of another golf architect.

Darwin had certain things he liked and certain things he disliked, and he was very predictable in following these core preferences. In that way your work is also predictable, so is Shackelford's. Based on that I'd say you are all three dogmatic.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2006, 09:56:48 AM by Tom MacWood »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2006, 09:53:44 AM »
Tom,

I never proposed that anyone other than the critics themselves institute standards upon themselves, potentially for their own good!  As you and other point out, standards do exist for them, if only in the libel laws and in the form of their editors.  Of course, no one edits blogs.

I will never be the nekked architect, because when people say "I cast a long shadow" in the field of golf course architecture, they are unfortunatly referring not to my body of work, but only to my body....... :-\

Brad,

Thanks for giving form to an ill formed question.  Each of the national critics is a self made man, as it were, which I respect.  You have set your own standards through your training in academia, Ron perhaps from his lawyer training.  I don't know as much about Geoff's, or newer national critics background, and like golf design, there doesn't seem to be a 'standard" way to get into your line of work. Not surprising that there is such a wide style variety, which also like gca, is  a good thing.

One thing I like about your reviews is the detailed breakdown.  First, it says that if the process is good, then the resulting review is more likely to be good.  Second, if a club sees that it fell down because of a specific area - like par 5 holes, the walk in the park test, etc. they can use that information going forward.  They are also less likely to take a defensive attitude.

Thanks for your reply and your body of work.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2006, 10:01:59 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2006, 12:32:51 PM »
Jeff Brauer,

If Geoff Shackelford atlered (freshened) his views, wouldn't that indicate that his core values were unstable ?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2006, 12:41:38 PM »
Pat,

I don't know.  Are you the same man you were at 25, or have your life experiences changed your view of what's important?  If so, and I'll bet they have, does that make your views unstable, or does it say they have properly matured?

Could the same happen to a critic?

I know I am scared that my thoughts on golf design will remain stagnant and it will show up in my work.  I don't think that "freshening" my designs makes my core values unstable - its more of an evolution rather than a denial of what I did in the past.

Again, could the same happen to a critic?  Brad seems to think it should.  And who has stronger core values - one who takes in information and slowly changes his mindset, or one who stubbornly refuses to be budged by good opinions or facts? :)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2006, 01:14:34 PM »

I don't know.  Are you the same man you were at 25, or have your life experiences changed your view of what's important?  If so, and I'll bet they have, does that make your views unstable, or does it say they have properly matured?

Jeff,

I think experience changes perspectives, I'm not so sure it changes core values, and I think you have to distinguish between the two.
[/color]

Could the same happen to a critic?

I know I am scared that my thoughts on golf design will remain stagnant and it will show up in my work.  

I think you're confusing your creativity with a critic whose architectural values tend to gravitate or remain within a closed set of designs.  

It's certainly reasonable for you to fear that your designs will not meet with the approval of a critic predisposed to a certain style.  But, that doesn't invalidate your design theories or your work.

For example, I hate rap music.
But, I love a fairly broad range of music other than rap.

However, to succeed in music today, being a retro artist won't cut it.  Musicians have to go with what the current market demands.  I think the same may be true with GCA.

The ultimate test is:  The test of time.

Will work endure ?   Will it rise above the fads, the fluctuating market demands to gain and retain "stature" for the ages ?

When one reads Geoff Shackelford's "The Golden Age of Golf Design"  it's clear that these architects had a clear style, even a pattern of design, that appealed to their contemporary "market demands", yet, their designs retained their appeal over the ages.

I think that becomes your challenge, and, I see nothing wrong with repeating design "concepts".  If anything, I think aversion to repitition has hurt more current architects than it's helped.
[/color]

I don't think that "freshening" my designs makes my core values unstable - its more of an evolution rather than a denial of what I did in the past.

I don't know what you mean by "freshening" in the context of preserving your "core values"

Certainly a variation on a theme is within the context of creativity.
[/color]

Again, could the same happen to a critic?  Brad seems to think it should.  And who has stronger core values - one who takes in information and slowly changes his mindset, or one who stubbornly refuses to be budged by good opinions or facts? :)

That's a loaded way to present the question.
You've predisposed the answer based on the choices presented.

Certainly, flexibility and the ability to recognize the merit within designs should be a prerequisite to being a critic.

Critics shouldn't be immune from criticism, and, they're certainly not infallible..
[/color]

T_MacWood

Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2006, 10:21:36 PM »
I think a good sign of a good critic is the ability to talk in the field and play golf with designers across the spectrum, and that includes people whose work you don't necessarily like. Some of the people who get regularly bashed here have a lot to say about design, and they are obviously successful for a reason. Even if I don't like their aesthetic sensibility I will learn something from them as designers, engineers, businessmen, or people-persons. The sign of a predictable, stale writer is that he ends up talking (and quoting from) the same small circle of people. The sign of vibrant, thinking and creative critic is that he spends more time with the folks he disagrees with and is willing to do mental and intellectual battle with them rather than dismiss them. Just like the best conservatives know their Marxists and their liberals; the best golf course critics are thoroughly versed and can learn from the folks they most disgree with.


That's interesting. Could you share an example where your view of an architect and his work changed from time spent in the field with him?

Gary Daughters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Critics Paradigm?
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2006, 07:37:13 AM »

Principle needs to be distinguished from its evil twin, narrow-mindedness, with which it is often confused.  

Something else that may be pertinent to this discussion is the critic's means of expression, which is half the job.  If said means becomes repetitive the critic can become quite tiresome.

Jeff.. Here's the Mac-Daddy quote on critics.  It's probably too long to be displayed at your gym:

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

No points allotted for identifying the speaker.
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

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