[Patrick_Mucci]

The feature where the green is slightly elevated from the fronting fairway continues to intrique me.

Coore & Crenshaw used the feature throughout their design at Hidden Creek.

Donald Ross used the same feature throughout the design of Mountain Ridge

CBM used the feature at NGLA and other courses

The feature accomodates a ground game but penalizes a mis-hit or shot hit immediately short of the green.

It makes front hole locations dicier to approach as many golfers attempt to squeeze their approach or recovery between the front of the green and the front hole location.

It would seem to be an aid to drainage by keeping the green above the fronting fairway, and on most greens sloped back to front, aid in removing surface water.

From the perspective of deceit, many of these rises are almost invisible.   In particular, on the 2nd green at NGLA, it's invisible to all but the closest inspections. hence, the golfer doesn't detect the subtle distinction in the fronting terrain.

Is this feature more prevalent in pushup, versus USGA spec greens ?

Today, what's the primary purpose of employment of this feature ?

And, has the feature become rare in modern golf designs.

At what courses is this feature in abundant use ?

And, what do you believe its primary purpose is at these courses ?

[Chris Moore]

My course at New Orleans Country Club is a Bobby Weed re-design that opened in 2003.  12 of the holes feature a rise from fairway level where the green begins (and on virtually all sides of the green).  I believe this feature to be primarily to aid in drainage.  However, the rises do act to toughen the approach shots, rejecting everything that does not land in the right place.  

I like the "shoulders" on our greens for the drainage feature as well as the playability features.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Again, a great topic. If you didn't exist, Ran would have to invent you!

I played Brook Hollow in Dallas last week with Eric Dorsey, who posts here.  That Tillie/C and C remodel had several of those greens, and Eric happened to end up on the front fringe at least three times.  They do stop underclubbed shots.

I think they were steep enough to effectively cut off the ground game for chip shots, and found myself wedging on when I was short.  I didn't like that and would be interested to know if the courses you mentioned really do allow bump and run recoveries, or if you usually wedge up, too.

I do think they are less prevalent in modern design, mostly because bulldozer operators can more easily shape in those long flowing slopes and most think they look better with todays emphasis on visual design.  I also agree that it is very subtle form of penalty that we noticed "too late" at Brook Hollow on too many greens. That may be the "what you see is what you get" design culture that ruled for so long before computers made that term more famous.

A green slightly elevated does help drainage and visually tends to set it apart from its surroundings.

I personally like greens that are relatively flat on the approach slope on one side, but get gradually steeper on the other (or sometimes right in the middle) so that they affect strategy from one side of the fw more than the other, rather than being a constant slope.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I think they can deliberately thwart the ground game in the sense of pitching, however, I've found that 4 and 6 irons, as well as putters can be highly functional when those features are confronted.

Shots that are more "running" in nature fare far better than pitched shots that impact on the upslope.

And, at NGLA an insidious feature exists when the fairway slopes down to the green.

A ball hitting the downslope will bound forward, past the hole, leaving the golfer with a downhill putt, but, shots hit into the upslope, will come to a dead stop and back up, leaving the golfer with a dicey little recovery.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Compared to many other design elements, this seems inexpensive and, when measured on some scale of "golfer enjoyment bang for the construction buck," has got to be off the charts!

As to modern courses, I think Donald Steel gets this, for example his course at Turnberry.

Also, Peter Thomson and Michael Wolveridge at the Links at Hope Island.  That course (see the "Courses by Country" writeup) reminds how one can make a course very interesting simply by borrowing a few concepts from links course architecture.

Mark

[Wayne_Kozun]

Compared to many other design elements, this seems inexpensive and, when measured on some scale of "golfer enjoyment bang for the construction buck," has got to be off the charts!

As to modern courses, I think Donald Steel gets this, for example his course at Turnberry.

You could say the same for Steel about his work on Redtail Golf Course.  See the writeup by Ran on this site here.

[Willie_Dow]

Donald Steel certainly did this at Carnegie Abby, Newport. And drainage was the big problem with this environmental atmosphire.  
Do not redo your bunkers without a great understanding of the drainage considerations !!!

[Mike_Cirba]

I recall starting a thread after playing NGLA for the first time called "Where's the ground game at NGLA?", citing the fact that most greens did not in fact easily accommodate a running approach very well, which I found ironic given that the course was modeled after the best in the British Isles, where we think of the ground game as a requisite feature.

Those little rises do indeed complicate options, and act as a defense to balls hit high that land on the upslope.   To answer Pat's question, I think that guys like CB were so in tune to the game and its options that they clearly saw, as we do now, that they had both functional and strategic value.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean Arble,

It's not that the greens are severely pitched in front, it's that subtle rise fronting the green that does most of the damage to weak approaches.

The slightly downhill putt remains a dicey shot for those who overshoot the target.

The neat part about the feature is when the land fronting the green slopes down to the green, yet, which makes that feature almost undetectable to all but the most discerning eyes.  A shot to a front hole location, slightly misplayed, produces a shocked golfer, many of whom can't understand what happened.

You bring up another key point, location and function of the sprinkler heads for the green.

If a head is mislocated, the fronting area will become soft and spongy, depriving the golfer of the option to hit short and run the ball to the green.

This maintainance ERROR has led more golfers to employ the aerial game, no matter where the hole is cut.


Mike Cirba,

I'd agree that there are some strictly aerial holes at NGLA, like # 3, # 6, # 8, however, many greens allow and in fact beg for a running approach.

# 18, # 15, # 12, # 11, # 9 and others invite a running approach, especially to select hole locations (top left on # 11)

NGLA has some of those "rise" features, some are more pronounced than others, like # 2 versus # 7.

[Brent Hutto]

So how tall and how steep are the rises discussed in this thread? A true plateau green that's 3-4 feet above the fairway with an almost vertical slope is a whole different beast.  And I assume we're not discussing the case where the last 10, 20, 50 yards or whatever of fairway is an upslope.

So thinking about in-between cases where the front edge of the green is between six inches and two feet higher than a spot five or ten yards short of the green, I think my home course has that arrangement on about 14 of its 27 holes. There are a couple more greens elevated 30" to 48" above the fairway but that's getting into plateau territory since they have a moderately steep slope.

I think a raised front is a feature you almost can't overuse. It's clearly superior in my opinion to bunkers directly fronting one green after another. Having the fronting bunkers offset to one side or another with a slightly raised front on the remainder of the green is a combination used on several holes at our club. As someone mentioned, front pin placements are more fun this way because you can have the choice between a downhill putt from the middle/back of the green versus a touchy little runup or pitch shot from short of the green. This makes the effective size of the desirable portion of the green miniscule.

I'll go as far as saying that a course where every green (other than those fronted by bunkers or water) has this sort of raised front lip is plainly superior to one where all the greens are completely level with the fairway. The ideal would be some mixture for variety but not raising at least some of the greens would seem to be an opportunity missed, especially for the weaker players who will be missing a lot of green.

[Forrest Richardson]

Pat — At a significant re-model, "transformation", of Peacock Gap in Northern, California we are using this approach for several reasons. At a short par-3 of 140-yards (elevated tees) we have a significant lowland drainage issue at the green site. By elevating the green and creating a plateau we have resolved the drainage issue and have created interest without the obstacle of bunkers — which would further be complicated by the lowland conditions.

Our solution answers your question in this case — all three elements are at play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brent Hutto,

In some instances the slope is very subtle, almost imperceptable, yet, it retains a highly effective function.

In some cases the upslope may be at the foot of a downslope, which really deceives the golfer, but, because the slight upslope is over a 3 to 10 foot distance, it's really difficult to detect from the area of approach or recovery.

# 2 at NGLA would be exhibit A.

In other uses, it's rather pronounced, like on the 12th hole at NGLA.

There, run up shots must impact the ground well short of the rise from the low point of the fronting fairway in order to be effective.

Balls hit 20 hards short, with the proper trajectory, will run up the slope, onto the green.  Balls hit 5-10 yards short will stay on the slope or roll back to the low point.  Balls hit to the front of the green, with a little backspin will also come back down the slope.

Now, the golfer is faced with a dicey shot.
Do they putt, chip, pitch or flop, and what are the consequences of a mis-hit shot.

# 7 and # 14 at NGLA present a slightly different slope, rising quickly from the fronting fairway.  There, the rise may be about two feet.

But, the shot selection employed to deal with each of these features is different.

One must detect the feature, analyze how best to defeat or use it, and then have the courage to execute a shot not commonly used.

When employed in a variety of ways, the feature produces interesting architecture and golf.

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