[Tom Scupholm III]

How do you guys rank Castle Pines as far as a Big Jack design?  Top 3?  Top 10?

[PThomas]

all I know is I don't like the look of 18 with all of those bunkers

[Glenn Spencer]

I haven't played it, but by looking at it for years now, I would imagine it being more towards top 5, but like I said I haven't played it. 18 is a terrible eye-sore with all of those bunkers and to be honest, I associate rightly or wrongly that hole with being responsible for the others that you see of its ilk.

[James Edwards]

Paul,

I agree, but the problem is, this view is always presented from the blimp.. and is not the reality on the floor whilst playing.

[PThomas]

Paul,

I agree, but the problem is, this view is always presented from the blimp.. and is not the reality on the floor whilst playing.

that's true James

17 is kind of  a joke of a par 5 for the pros now...what is it, a drive and 8-iron ..unless they've added length or made it harder that is probably the psoter child for holes whose par should be lowered

[JWL]

Paul T

I agree that those bunkers don't look very appealing from the air.   Not even noticeable when playing the hole.

On 17, there is a tee on the other side of the lake behind the present tee jutting out in the lake.   I would guess that it would lengthen the hole by 50-60 yards.   I will be visiting out there after the Sebonack opening later this month and I think new bunkering will be added on the right side of 17 fairway to put a little more premium on the drive on the hole.
If the course was playing any other format other than the Stableford, I am pretty sure 17 would be a Par 4.

[Jim Franklin]

I think it is top 5 for Jack. 18 isn't that bad when playing it. I really didn't notice all of the bunkers. 17 is great for that event so I wouldn't call it a joke. It makes for great television.

[PThomas]

Jim and JWL - I'm a reasonable man, but come on:  don't you think 17 crosses way over the line re what a par 5 should be?  it's not even a drive and mid-iron!!

what's next, a 30 yard par 3 there?

[Matt_Ward]

Early on Castle Pines would be a top tier Nicklaus layout but given the renaissance (shall I use the word?) of what Team Golden Bear has done in the last 5-10 years I'd have to say that Castle Pines benefits immeasurably from having a Tour event that gives it guaranteed exposure yearly.

The layout has its moments but for people to believe that it remains at or near the top of what Jack has done in the most recent of time would be a major error IMHO.

[Doug Wright]

Early on Castle Pines would be a top tier Nicklaus layout but given the renaissance (shall I use the word?) of what Team Golden Bear has done in the last 5-10 years I'd have to say that Castle Pines benefits immeasurably from having a Tour event that gives it guaranteed exposure yearly.

The layout has its moments but for people to believe that it remains at or near the top of what Jack has done in the most recent of time would be a major error IMHO.

Matt,

Would you care to be more specific? What other courses are you saying Jack has done in the last 5-10 years that drop Castle Pines down the list of Jack's best?

[JWL]

PAUL T

Did you read my post?

I said it would be a Par 4 under any other format than the Stableford that the tournament is based on.

It would not be an easy Par 4, I can assure you of that.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I have not played either. The feel from the television is not adequate for me to quantify how it fits into the greater jackoffdom.

[PThomas]

PAUL T

Did you read my post?

I said it would be a Par 4 under any other format than the Stableford that the tournament is based on.

It would not be an easy Par 4, I can assure you of that.

I did!

and I still don't think it should be a par 4 under the Stableford format!

[Doug Wright]

These questions are hard to answer unless one has played a large number of Nicklaus courses--which I haven't. I have  played about 8 (Castle Pines GC and Castle Pines CC, Breckenridge and CC of the Rockies in the Colo mountains, Meridian GC near Denver, Ptarmigan near Ft. Collins, CO, Cabo Del Sol, Grand Haven in Palm Coast, Fla) so my sample size is limited.  Of these, Castle Pines GC and Cabo del Sol are head and shoulders above the rest, and I think in their own right they are very good courses too.  The routing of Castle Pines GC is very solid, with good use of the very significant elevation changes and other topography on the site. I prefer the front nine because I think there's more variety and interest. For example, holes you never see on TV are 2-6. Holes 2-4 use washes/gullies in relatively treeless areas. to good advantage. The second hole is a short par 4 with a green set angled just over a wash that requires precision and distance control. Number 3 is a 450 yard par 4 with a split fairway with a gully in the center that works (ie you really have a decision whether to go left to the wider side leaving a tougher angle to the green (also perched over a wash) or right to the narrower side with a good angle). Number 4 is a par 3 of about 200 yards to a narrow green cut over yet another wash. Number 5 is a terrific uphill 480 yard par 4 with a really wide LZ and a green cut into a hillside. The dogleg right par 4 6th requires a calculated bite off what you will driver/3 wood and a short uphill second shot.

There's good variety of driving accuracy required, ranging from bomb it holes like 5 and 17 to fairly tight holes like the par 5 8th, 12 and 13.

I'm not a fan of the early-Nicklaus style collection bunkers like you see on the par 3 16th (they are also on #5 and #6), some of the changes like the lake greenside left on 14 and the eye candy like the useless (and never touched or seen during play even by non-Tour players) bunkers in the hill on 18 are silly. But there are some really good golf holes there too (eg 9 and 10 and the front 9 holes I mention above). Of course 17 would be a par 4 in stroke play, but it's great for the Stableford IMO.

[Matthew Schulte]

I attended the international yesterday and watched more players miss the 17th fairway than hit it.  The hole IS very reachable IF you hit the fairway.  The entire group of Els, DiMarco and Cink layed up and played wedges in.  Who cares what the par is?  They all play the same hole an post a score.

Assuming you don't put his name on Harbor Town I think it would belong in his top 5.  It is without question in his top 10.

How would you arrange the below 10 or would you have others that I am not naming?

Sebonack
Muirfield Village
Cabo del Sol
Castle Pines Golf Club
Pronghorn
Mayacama
May River Plantation
Valhalla
Shoal Creek
Reflection Bay

[PThomas]

Matthew: come on, isn't silly to have a par 5 that plays THAT short??

[PThomas]

Dr. Bill:  I believe I did take my meds, but I could be mistaken

I have no problems with true half-pars but this hole goes way over the line!  

if they want low scores  they can make all the par 3s into apr 4s too!

[Matthew Schulte]

Paul:

Agreed that the routing is clearly not intended for walkers.

Yes the 17th is short, however, from what I saw yesterday, players not in the fairway were not reaching or holding that green.  The greens are firm and getting quite quick.

Lets face it, a par 5 at that point in the tournament is critical to the excitement of the tournament.  There is a road behind the tee so there isn't a whole lot of room to move it back.  Apparently Nicklaus didn't foresee these kinds of distance gains.  They could however, at a considerable expense, build a tee a way to the left of its current position.

[cary lichtenstein]

You need to add both the Bears Club and the Ritz into your mix

[Greg Tallman]

Where was the outrage when guys were hitting 3-wood/7 iron or 2 iron/7 iron to par 5's at Hoylake?

Truth is it might be THE perfect hole given the stage in the round and the format of the tournament.

5 point swing is very possible and has happened many times... A guy 7 points down with two to play can win in regulation...
Mere mortals would be hitting middle to longer irons - not 8 irons. Mere mortals that could hit 8 iron in are hacking out of the hay more often than not.

JWL - What is the least club you have hit in from the shorter tournament tees? You are not short by any means and I am guessing 5-6 iron on your best day?

[Doug Wright]

Truth is it might be THE perfect hole given the stage in the round and the format of the tournament.

5 point swing is very possible and has happened many times... A guy 7 points down with two to play can win in regulation...
Mere mortals would be hitting middle to longer irons - not 8 irons. Mere mortals that could hit 8 iron in are hacking out of the hay more often than not.

Greg,

It's better than that--there have even been a few 8 point double eagles on 17 during the 25 years of the tourney that have added to the fun...

[Greg Tallman]

Doug,

Good Point... mine was:

The 5 point swing is on the mind of the guy behind and, more importantly, the leader who can't rely on a "routine birdie" by his pursuer.

A great tournament hole given the format.

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

To answer your question I would place the following courses as good examples of the "new" Nicklaus design motif. Each of them is rather unique, fun to play and doesn't back away from an appropriate challenge. In sum -- the Nicklaus design approach has gotten more sensitive to what critics have said but not so soft as to simply create dumb down layouts that max out the scenery but are as flat as week old Coca Cola.

Cabo del Sol

Desert Mtn (Chiricahua) *although I am a huge fan of the original Geronimo which was changed years later. I also like what Jack did at Outlaw -- very playable and fun for all types -- save for the over-the-top toughness of the par-4 10th green which fails to reward the proper play more often than not.

The Club at Pronghorn

Muirfield Village

Mayacama

Reflection Bay *very well done layout for a public course that gets a good bit of play.

If I have more time later I can likely name a few others that are quite good and more reflective of where Jack is today in terms of design product. I'm not downplaying the nature of Castle Pines mind you -- but that I see a good bit more in what Jack does for many of his sites today. All told -- I've played at least 60+ of his designs over the years.

P.S. Someone mentioned Jacks' design of Harbour Town and I don't think that holds water -- I believe the design credit should go to Pete Dye there.

[Greg Tallman]

Matt Ward,

Interesting you put Pronghorn above Mayacama...

Most that have played both place Mayacama well above Pronghorn. Can you elaborate on these two in particular?

I would personally rate The Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol and Muirfield Village as co-#1's... though have not played Mayacama as yet.

[Matt_Ward]

Greg:

My responses were not in order of preference. I simply listed quickly my thoughts on courses jack has designed that I believe are beyond the likes of Castle Pines.

Pronghorn is not to be undervalued -- it is well done and very much a quality product.

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