[Scott_Burroughs]

Actually, I was trying to save you the time in searching for that post, in case you were trying to prove me wrong.    I'm just procrastinating from doing real work.  

[mike_malone]

 The difficulty I have in discussing Inniscrone is that I have tried to forget as much as possible about the course for fear I would only remember the bad holes.


   But, I do recall liking #1 , #2 , the par five dogleg left with the centerline bunkers off the tee and the right to left sloping green , #9 or #18--the one with the huge carry bunker in the center of the fairway.


    I found some of the long par fours to be awkward. A couple had sloping fairways with trees on both sides that left very little effective landing area.

    The long hole with the sunken green was interesting and daring but in the end too frustrating.


   There was a fun hole with substantial fairway to the left of the green that allowed balls to roll onto the green.


   But, guys, there are only 18 holes and if 3-5 are bad that is just too many.



    Even the very good holes have been done in other places, even places done by Hanse, and these other places don't have the problem holes that Inniscrone has.


   

[Jim_Coleman]

Tommy:
    You should only know the reality.  Malone is my Lex Luther (or me, his).  We rarely have a civil word.  Therefore, I have rethought my position on Inniscrone in light of my new found ally.  So, on further review ...  Malone is right; Inniscrone is not a good golf course.  This may be proof of the blind squirrel adage.
     I do find it interesting that Inniscrone's (or should I say Hanse's) defenders seem to fall back on the "It was a bad piece of property" or "The beaurocrats made him do it" defense.  That may be so; and it may provide a good excuse for the place; but it doesn't change the final outcome.  Maybe Gil did his best with what he was given.  So what?

[George Pazin]

   Even the very good holes have been done in other places, even places done by Hanse, and these other places don't have the problem holes that Inniscrone has.

I'm not trying to make excuses for Gil, but my recollection from the luncheon and the day was that each change would have caused major problems, so the decision was made to go ahead as is.

I'd agree with you if I thought there was 3-5 bad holes. To me, there was one bad hole - #5, which they couldn't really fix - and one weird hole, #10.

That is more than offset for me with all of the other holes; I especially enjoyed the stretches of 1-4 and 12-15.

Jim -

You're obviously set on your opinion, which is fine, but for me it's simply a matter of 2 questionable holes not resulting in a verdict of "bad course" or "the course sucks". I don't have the breadth of experience of most on here, but I haven't played many courses that don't have a questionable hole or two, and I've played many courses that don't have a memorable hole, let alone 10 or more.

[Mike_Cirba]

Inniscrone is one of those places that draws a polarity of opinions and I know people who love it and hate it.

From my perspective, I'd like to give a Doak Scale Rating hole by hole.

Hole 1 - 7
Hole 2 - 8
Hole 3 - 6
Hole 4 - 7
Hole 5 - 2
Hole 6 - 7
Hole 7 - 6
Hole 8 - 3
Hole 9 - 8

Hole 10 - 1
Hole 11 - 7
Hole 12 - 9
Hole 13 - 7
Hole 14 - 5
Hole 15 - 9
Hole 16 - 7
Hole 17 - Either a 2 or an 8, never can decide.
Hole 18 - 3

[George Pazin]

Mike, I find your number for the 8th to be interesting. Is it lower due to the fact that the desired (and designed) tee isn't used? I could definitely see preferring that tee, but I thought it was still a good hole even from the other tee. If pressed, I might even say I prefer #8 to #14.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike, I find your number for the 8th to be interesting. Is it lower due to the fact that the desired (and designed) tee isn't used? I could definitely see preferring that tee, but I thought it was still a good hole even from the other tee. If pressed, I might even say I prefer #8 to #14.

George,

I just don't think the 8th hole works well from the left tee at all.   I understand the concept and goal, but the fact remains that the green was designed for an angle that is not used.  As is, I think the angle is way to shallow for the length of the shot.

[George Pazin]

As is, I think the angle is way to shallow for the length of the shot.

Must be the case of 1 play not being enough! In fact, it was one of my few GIRs all day, so I didn't notice the shallowness.

 

It is my understanding that the original tee is one of the things that had to be adjusted when the zoning fellow came up with his arbitrary rule that no tee could be within XX yards of a green.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jim,
I don't think Inniscrone is on a bad piece of property. Come out here and I'll show you lots of bad pieces of property. Kucklehead Malone is one of the few people I know that can be 100% wrong, 100% of the time. If there was a hall of fame for knuckelheads, he would have been it's first inductee, way ahead of Paul Winchel's Knucklehead Smith.

It reminds me of that movie, A Fish Called Wanda...

Wanda: To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people. I've known sheep who could outwit you. I've worn dresses with higher IQs, but you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?

Otto: Apes don't read philosophy.

Wanda: Yes they do, Otto, they just don't understand it!

That scene reminds me of dealing architecturally with Michael Mayday-Knucklehead Malone....

Please Jim, go play it again, or better yet next time I'm back there we'll go play it together and I can sway you from the dark side. (In Mayday's case, Stupid Side)

[mike_malone]

 Tommy,

    If you get near Phila. and play Innisgroan instead of Rolling Green then you can't be helped.

[Jim_Coleman]

Tommy:
     Please get in touch when you come east.  Even if we don't agree on Inniscrone, we can agree on Malone.  I have no doubt we will get along just fine.

[wsmorrison]

Tommy,

That is the spitting image of that knucklehead, Mike Malone.  Nice going!  Where does he come up with all his concepts?  The guy isn't channeling William Flynn, he's channeling Mortimer Snerd    

[mike_malone]

Wayne,

    Your comments on the architectural merits of #10 at Innisgroan are right on.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Knucklehead,
The only way I get to Fox Chase is if Ellen Muth is going to be there skinny-dipping in The Conden's/Mr. Norton's pool. (I do hope your printing this priceless material up and giving it to him)

A study of Inniscrone should always be a key factor when in Philly. It's a modern gem with a few correctable hiccups.

Wayne,
The very fast approaching Jerry Louis Labor Day Telethon is coming up at the end of this month in Las Vegas. Will you also make sure Knucklehead has his shoe laces tied when he gets on the plane for Vegas.

Thanks.

[Craig_Rokke]

The tee on #8--yes it could be in a better location. Too bad
some obscure zoning mandate got involved. Some (not me)would suggest bringing in a dozer with headlights and just making a new freakin' tee........

[wsmorrison]

Tommy,

The story around Fox Chase was that Mike Malone was stalking Ellen Muth after he caught her gawking at him.  Turns out she just was staring because she wanted to know if that was Edgar Bergen with his hand up the back of Malone's shirt.  Anyway, Mike was escorted off the set after his famous scene but only after wardrobe took back his double knit slacks, white belt and long collared golf shirt.  It wasn't until later that they realized those were actually Mike's golf clothes and not wardrobe    He had some 'splaining to do when he got home and his wife sees him in just his underwear!

I hope you also enjoyed this commentary on Inniscrone's 10th hole as well, Mikey.  Seriously though, enjoy Scotland!  Looking forward to hearing about your travels.

[mike_malone]

 This is total fabrication. My wife has never seen me in my underwear. Where those three daughters came from I have no idea.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Knucklehead Malone in Scotland?

This website has a pretty broad group of guys with connections, both personal and professional. Does anyone have any connections to revoke his passport once he's over there? It's going to take a very long time for him to get anything through that thick wooden skull...

As Henny Youngman would say, "Take my dummy, please........"

[mike_malone]

 Tommy,

   I'm going with low expectations. I hope TOC and N.Berwick are a little better than Innisgroan.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mikey,
I expect them both to fly right over your head. Still, it will be great entertainment hearing your take on them. I better bring mop.

[Dan Herrmann]

Just a quick warning...  We played Inniscrone today, and the management has let the course conditions go - and badly.  (I WAS WRONG - PLEASE SEE BILL'S POST BELOW)

From the sand tee on 9 (no grass to be found) to the ballmark cratered greens, it was a travesty.  Or, as Laura just said, it was horrible.

I think the normal bad boys of Philly conditioning (Pickering, for example) are now actually better conditioned.

It's such a shame.

[Dan Herrmann]

Thanks for the info - I always appreciate having correct information.

Bill - well said..

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Joe Bausch brought me out to this course yesterday.  While being far from in-season condition (it is November 26, after all, in the Northeast), I didn't think this hole was all that bad.  Granted, it's not exactly memorable, but I fail to see why it's so vilified.  
Like at Lederach, the property is less than ideal in some spots.  It's obvious there was some difficult ground to traverse, to get from the clubhouse down the hill to the other side of the wetlands area.  Okay.  It is what it is.  
I'm still trying to work out how to set up the hole so it is playable for the everyday publinx player and the high-level player.  Maybe it doesn't need anything done to it, it's fine the way it is; maybe players should be better estimators of their abilities and games.  The green is unique looking in the field,all by itself, without bunkers.  It doesn't need any.  The green looks good.  I'll invite any and/or all takers.

[mike_malone]

Doug,

   I find blind tee shots to an  angled landing area with varied lengths  for layups with one shot penalties as punishment for offline hits to be lousy architecture. What is the point?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Oh No, It's Mayday!

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