News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Glenn Spencer

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2006, 04:19:19 PM »
I have had it!! She was being interviewed and said something that came out wrong. Jesus!! I could see myself saying the exact same words, very easily!!! I guess I knew the rule wrong- Translation- I thought I knew that rule for sure, but somewhere along the way, I remembered it incorrectly.

Tom Huckaby

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2006, 04:23:39 PM »
I have had it!! She was being interviewed and said something that came out wrong. Jesus!! I could see myself saying the exact same words, very easily!!! I guess I knew the rule wrong- Translation- I thought I knew that rule for sure, but somewhere along the way, I remembered it incorrectly.

EXACTLY.

It would suck to be a public figure and face constant scrutiny, huh?  But methinks the positives do outweigh the negatives.

Glenn Spencer

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2006, 04:24:42 PM »
Glenn - yep - Jordan is just not far along enough yet to get that.  Here's hoping he's the extremely rare player who never does run afoul of either of those things....

 ;D

5 holes left in US Junior Match Play qualifying, I am cruising along, in comfortably by 4 or 5. I hit my tee-shot right of right on 14 the par 5, I try and punch out a six-iron and it hits the rock in front of me and comes back and misses the jewels by about 3 inches and drops at me feet. I had no idea this was a penalty. How would that ever come up unless it happened to you? Fortunately, about 5 people close by and a playing competitor set me straight, but I had no idea and I feel like I know a few rules.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2006, 04:40:35 PM by Glenn Spencer »

Tom Huckaby

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2006, 04:29:35 PM »
Glenn - love it!

The principle is common... but I have to say your story is unique.

 ;D ;D

Might sound stupid, but HS tourney, I hit a ball into a HUGE bunker, with only one rake, way down by other end from my ball.  Being the good maintenance citizen I am and not wanting to delay play, I walked into the bunker and grabbed the rake, and then raked up my footprints from that farway spot as I backed out, before I then moved up to play my shot.  Of course I know NOW that's a penalty for testing condition... but I sure as hell didn't at the time, and was pretty surprised when I got called on it.  And given I believe I was exactly 16 also at the time, if asked about it, I have little doubt I would have said:  

I guess I knew the rule wrong.

 ;D
« Last Edit: August 04, 2006, 04:30:34 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Glenn Spencer

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2006, 04:39:52 PM »
Glenn - love it!

The principle is common... but I have to say your story is unique.

 ;D ;D

Might sound stupid, but HS tourney, I hit a ball into a HUGE bunker, with only one rake, way down by other end from my ball.  Being the good maintenance citizen I am and not wanting to delay play, I walked into the bunker and grabbed the rake, and then raked up my footprints from that farway spot as I backed out, before I then moved up to play my shot.  Of course I know NOW that's a penalty for testing condition... but I sure as hell didn't at the time, and was pretty surprised when I got called on it.  And given I believe I was exactly 16 also at the time, if asked about it, I have little doubt I would have said:  

I guess I knew the rule wrong.

 ;D

TH,

Didn't they change a rule recently about bringing in rakes? I know that you can't rake and test, but I thought something had changed about 5 years ago or so. If not, I guess I know that rule wrong as well. ;D

Tom Huckaby

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2006, 04:45:18 PM »
Glenn - well, I guess I know the rule wrong even now.  My belief is - before looking it up - that one can carry the rake into a bunker, no problem there.  Not sure if that ever changed.  One can't test condition... and in my example, the bunker is the bunker, it doesn't matter if I raked 50 yards away (which I did).

TH

Glenn Spencer

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2006, 04:47:28 PM »
Yes, that is what I was trying to say TH. ;D You can carry it in and lay it down now, but I thought before that you could not lay it down- I thought that was considered testing. I could be so far off though. We need JVB on this one!!!

Tom Huckaby

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2006, 04:49:45 PM »
Yes, that is what I was trying to say TH. ;D You can carry it in and lay it down now, but I thought before that you could not lay it down- I thought that was considered testing. I could be so far off though. We need JVB on this one!!!

AHA!

We do need JVB, or Tom Paul, or a few others... but I am off to scour the rulebook....


Brian_Ewen

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2006, 04:50:33 PM »
And , I didnt know that if the wind blows your ball 6 feet closer to the hole , you dont just replace it and stubbornly not believe your playing partners .

I get great pleasure seeing this one come up every year . like Kenny Ferrie this year ! .

Jordan , you are noted in the Golfing Gods notebook . ;)





Tom Huckaby

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2006, 06:33:12 PM »
Sean:

That illustrates one of the problems I find with the rules of golf.  And that is, the more one follows them, the more one is seen as a prick.

Of course that's overgeneral and untrue most of the time... but it's true often enough, wouldn't you say?

I don't think I've ever "called" someone on a rules violation they didn't own up to themselves... I've agreed with plenty and advised on penalties in iffy situations, sure.... but calling someone on something is just not in my makeup.  And yes, I likely ought to have been DQ'd myself sometimes in stroke play for failing to protect the field.  But I'd really rather say nothing and maintain peace and good will than call rules violations and play the prick role.

Of course relatiatory prickness as in your example is understood and expected.

 ;D

Sam Sikes

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2006, 06:34:43 PM »
How do the rules apply to grass growing in a bunker?  And, in the case of scruffy bunkers or simply unkempt bunkers when is the ball officially "in the hazard".  

Tom Huckaby

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2006, 06:36:22 PM »
How do the rules apply to grass growing in a bunker?  And, in the case of scruffy bunkers or simply unkempt bunkers when is the ball officially "in the hazard".  

Sam - again we likely need one of the rules experts for this = and I am surely not one of them - but reading the rule, it seems pretty clear to me that in the hazard, touch nothing.  That is, the "ground in the hazard" means the earth and anything thereon.

TH

peter_p

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2006, 07:18:57 PM »
   I didn't see the incident. If there was moss in the bunker it was probably a loose impediment, touching that in the backswing is a penalty. It happened to me in a match when I was laying one and my opponent six, I still lost the hole. If it was growing in the bunker, moss would still be ground in the hazard. Grass growing in the bunker could most likely be touched without penalty.
   Changes to the rules about bunkers:
      *changed definition: added language -including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen) surrounding the bunker.
      *caddy previously could rake a bunker at any time acting independently of his player. (13-4 exception two)
           current: after making the stroke, the player or his    caddy may smooth...
           previous: the player after making the stroke, or his   caddy at any time       without the authority of the player, may smooth...

   I have called penalties on someone retrieving a rake from a bunker and pulling it through the sand for two or three feet before lifting it, under the theory they have, however unintentionally, gained knowledge.
  The unfortunate part of this is that you mostly learn rules by breaking them or watching them being broken and being curious. This usually happens while you are an amateur, and definitely not while you are on a world stage.
  Knowing some of the rules is quite dangerous. If you read one rule a day, you should be reasonably proficient within a month.  
   

« Last Edit: August 04, 2006, 07:22:03 PM by Peter Pittock »

JohnV

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2006, 08:06:05 PM »
The moss could be part of the ground, in which case she is in violation of 13-4b or it could have been a loose impediment in which case it was a violation of 13-4c.

Tom, how could you not know you couldn't touch the ground in a hazard on your backswing?  Think about it logically.  There is a big pile of sand right behind your ball in the bunker.  Can you knock it down on the backswing so that you can get a better shot?

Sean, you got screwed by an idiot who didn't know the rules.  There is no penalty for taking a rake into a bunker or for "tossing" it into the sand as long doing so didn't move the ball or improve the lie of the ball.  See Decisions 13-4/21.

Craig Sweet

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2006, 08:26:32 PM »
I just saw this on TV...the moss was right behind her ball....I really don't see how she could have hit the shot without touching the moss...on the course I play on we have pine cones, leaves, old divots, cigar butts...all in the bunker....why on earth do we have a rule that penalizes you when your ball comes to rest upon a leave, a cigar butt...a chunk of moss?  If the rake is in the bunker you are allowed to move it if your ball is against it. Why not some other loose impediment?

Tim Gavrich

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2006, 08:54:49 PM »
I just saw this on TV...the moss was right behind her ball....I really don't see how she could have hit the shot without touching the moss...on the course I play on we have pine cones, leaves, old divots, cigar butts...all in the bunker....why on earth do we have a rule that penalizes you when your ball comes to rest upon a leave, a cigar butt...a chunk of moss?  If the rake is in the bunker you are allowed to move it if your ball is against it. Why not some other loose impediment?
Craig--

I believe that may be because the rake it a 'manmade obstruction.'  But then again, I suppose the cigar butt is also manmade.  I've heard of tournaments abroad in which one is allowed to remove stones and other loose impediments from bunkers (and in the US as well, for that matter).

I'm sorry, but I don't personally see this rule as incredible to decode.  On my first hole of golf ever, back when I was six years old, I hit a shot into a left greenside bunker, and the first thing my father said was that, "When your ball is in a bunker, you are not allowed to ground your club ever; you need to hover the club above the sand and can't touch the sand until you're making contact with the ball."  I consider this one of golf's most elementary rules.

Of course, I don't get caught up in the Decisions on the Rules of Golf, so there may well be sides of this rule I have never seen, but in the 10 years since that lesson from my father, nothing has ever come up that has necessitated further exploration of this rule.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Wayne_Kozun

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2006, 09:00:05 PM »
I just saw this on TV...the moss was right behind her ball....I really don't see how she could have hit the shot without touching the moss...on the course I play on we have pine cones, leaves, old divots, cigar butts...all in the bunker....why on earth do we have a rule that penalizes you when your ball comes to rest upon a leave, a cigar butt...a chunk of moss?  If the rake is in the bunker you are allowed to move it if your ball is against it. Why not some other loose impediment?
My understanding is that in a hazard you cannot move loose impediments which are "natural" objects like leaves, dirt, grass, twigs, stones, etc. but you can move obstructions which are "unnatural" objects like cigar butts, pop cans, rakes, cart girls, etc.

peter_p

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2006, 09:24:05 PM »
Craig,
  It is a hazard. Miss the hazard and you get to move loose impediments. Hit into the hazard and you can't move them. Simple, elegant and logical. :) The cigar butt can be moved.
  I understood her comments to be she thought if you continued the swing it negated the possible penalty. The area of the swing can be improved in the backswing, provided the swing is completed, but this only occurs outside a hazard
« Last Edit: August 04, 2006, 09:24:36 PM by Peter Pittock »

Craig Sweet

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2006, 09:54:35 PM »
Peter...my playing partner today was bitching about the condition of the bunkers...the lousy rake jobs being left behind by other golfers...I gave him the "it's a frekin' hazard...get over it!!" line....followed by the..."I don't think bunkers should be raked more than than once a week" line....he did not like either line, and he pouted for two holes.... ;D

Garland Bayley

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2006, 12:57:33 AM »
Before today, I would have bet a nickel that there was no penalty if your club touched something during the backswing. Shows what I know about the Rules, I suppose.

Then again, I don't get paid to play in golf tournaments.

Brent,

You know she was in a hazard don't you?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

peter_p

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2006, 12:05:16 PM »
Sean,
  Only the committee members know. Two guesses on my part it was part of someone's routine and he was persuasive, or that the putted ball is actually in the air at that point because of the putter's loft. You still can't press anything down by grounding the club in front of the ball when addressing the ball.

Andy Doyle

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2006, 12:18:27 PM »
Was her response normal for a 16 year-old?  Sure. But I would really like to hear her move away from the "I'm only 16, it's a learning experience" refrain.

First of all, she is a professional golfer.  Regardless of age, when you've declared yourself a pro you assume all the responsibilities that go along with that position.

Second, this is the same we've heard since that dust up with Donna A at the US Women's Open - "we are just learning" - and that was what, 3 years ago?  She's been playing in professional tournaments for 3-4 years.

Like any 16 year-old she obviously looks at the prospects of having to read the rule book as incredibly boring.  If that's the case, fine, but you should have somebody out there who can help you .....

... the player or his caddy ...

One thing I did not hear in any of the coverage of this so far - where was her caddy?  Once again it seems as though he wasn't there to prevent her from hurting herself.

If the player is not 100% on their rules knowledge, don't you think the caddy should be looking out for them?  One look at that lie and he could easily have said "Remember, make sure you don't touch anything until the forward swing."  It also surprised me that if he was watching the shot he didn't tell her he thought it was a penalty before she finished her round.

Sounds like at least 1 of them needs to go to an intensive rules workshop.

Andy
« Last Edit: August 05, 2006, 12:20:20 PM by Andy Doyle »

Doug Ralston

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #47 on: August 05, 2006, 06:17:03 PM »
Even the officials didn't catch it, someone e-mailed in from a golf blog who had slowed down her swing on their TV to see it.

Absurd, how much is now expected of this child. She definitely did not try to deny it, or hide from the consequences.

The moss was laying in the bunker behind her ball. She did not touch the sand, but scaped the moss on he backswing. Yes; if she had been more aware, she doubtless would have used a steeper angle. But i venture many of you have done similar things; but no one was taping you and editing to find mistakes!

Give the child a break, please. She is NOT threatening your manhood!

Doug

Dennis_Harwood

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2006, 07:01:53 PM »
Just to be clear. the moss was detached, therefore it was a loose impediment, and you can not touch loose impediments on your backswing in a hazard (water hazard or bunker)-If the moss were part of the ground( rooted and growing in the bunker) no penalty.

If its growing (grass, ivy, leaves, etc) in either a bunker or a water hazard, you can touch them on your backswing (Note under 13-4 says "At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch with a club or otherwise ..... any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing")

I applaud her talents, but the great thing about the Rules is that they treat everyone equally and cut no one  any slack.  Just because she is 16, the Rules do not and should not "extend her a break"  (In fact Michelle has illustrated a willingness to push the envelope a little in trying to use the Rules to her advantage).

The Rules do not guarantee you the right to make a full backswing--if the ball is in a bunker where its surrounded by long pine needles sticking out of the sand, you could only start your backswing above those needles (since they are all loose impediments)

Exception 1(b) under 13-4 says a player may place his clubs in a hazard without breaching the Rule.  Dec 13-4/20 says umbrellas and rakes are the same as clubs, and 13-4/21 says throwing those into the bunker is the same as placing--however, 13-4/22 says "jamming" the rake (or club) into the sand is testing and is a breach--

Doug Ralston

Re:"I guess I knew the rule wrong"
« Reply #49 on: August 05, 2006, 07:19:58 PM »
Yes Dennis;

And NO ONE I have seen or heard has suggested they should NOT apply to her. She took it quite phlegmatically, in fact.

I just suggest that those who feel threatened by a young girl should get a hold of themselves and quit trying to constantly find fault. I hear it on every golf forum I am involved in. It is a little trite, to say the least. Just let the child grow up without absurd expectations beyond even those already cast at her by the people around her. She is very young for such pressure and WILL make mistakes. Allow her!

Meanwhile, enjoy the great LPGA Tour, where so much talent has made for week after week of excitement.

Doug

Tags: