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Carlyle Rood

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Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« on: August 01, 2006, 09:04:19 AM »
I've been tasked at work to design the pedestrian, cart, and vehicle circulation around a clubhouse.  In particular, I'm getting you and your golf bag from your car to the first tee and every point in between--and then I'm getting you back after you play.

After reviewing many of the golf clubs I've played, I realize I've seen more bad examples than good examples.

Does anyone have any examples of golf clubs that do this very well?

Carlyle

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2006, 09:13:58 AM »
Caryle,

   I just finished thinking/designing one for our project at Old Bridge. While many older courses have the 1st tee or starter's shack immediately adjacent to the entrance, I've eliminated those and framed it into a modern ingress/egress question.All the strong examples I could think of included a circular drive with a club deposit-pickup spot along the circle.  Noted examples of good staging areas include:

Pine Valley, Merion, Myopia, Plainfield, Hamilton Farm, Winged Foot, Hollywood, Neshanic Valley, Hidden Creek, Sand Hills, etc...


Good Luck
« Last Edit: August 01, 2006, 09:14:32 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2006, 09:30:59 AM »
Steve:

Thank you for the suggestions.  Which Hidden Creek are you referring to?  I see there is one in FL, IN, and TX.

Also, I'm not familiar with Neshanic Valley or Hamilton Farm.  Where are these courses?

(I'm going to Google Earth the others in the interim.)

Thanks,

Carlyle

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2006, 09:32:28 AM »
New Jersey for all three!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2006, 09:37:31 AM »
I agree with Steve that the best ones I know have a broad circle, probably around at least 3 65 foot wide parking rows, and with driving direction going counter clockwise to allow easier guest drop off.  That way, the circle is big enough to put the pro shop on the near end with its own drop off, the main entrance in the center, and the dreaded service entrance on the far side of the clubhouse where its as hidden as it can be.

Don't forget the vertical element in design.  While I don't think multileve clubhouses work well (ask any clubhouse manager how much money they lose with a second floor dining room on account of stairs) you could possibly sink the parking lot so it isn't visible from the entry road, and raise the clubhouse to make it a focal point.

On small clubhouses, I have often recommended that the cart barn be adjacent, and styled like the main building so that it makes the clubhouse look bigger.  Depending on climate and site, if the building has any trellis structures, covering all or  part of the cart staging area with a similar structure might be a nice touch you could get away with in this hottest of all summers.  Certainly, some kind of covered pavillion for the bag boys would be good also, as would different paving to mark the stopping point.

It is a tricky design problem, and one that generally doesn't get the attention it merits. Don't count on the building architect to be much help. They seem to stop thinking outside the walls, and sometimes don't even want you to use curved paths, as they "might contrast with the geometry of the building" even if those paths are going right where they need to go.  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2006, 09:46:15 AM »
Unfortunately, I've already inherited a clubhouse design and the carts will be serviced underneath it.  I'll be reviewing that documentation shortly.  I have some latitude with the adjoining parking design, though very little.

It seems to be a small clubhouse with limited dining.  I'm not even sure it has lockers.  I think they intend to expand it eventually; but, not for quite some time.

C


Scott Witter

Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2006, 11:09:43 AM »
Carlyle:

I have a plethra of great solutions, however, they are in my head and you would have to hire me in order to get them. ;)

 Mr. Brauer is correct "It is a tricky design problem, and one that generally doesn't get the attention it merits. Don't count on the building architect to be much help. They seem to stop thinking outside the walls, and sometimes don't even want you to use curved paths, as they "might contrast with the geometry of the building" even if those paths are going right where they need to go."  

I have seen too many site clubhouse complexes designed by talented landscape architects who THOUGHT they understood good site design, but without knowing this beast/end user and their needs, so on and so forth, it isn't as simple and easy as it may seem.  Hey, would you plug in a great intimate site designer for an expansive urban plaza or street scape?  Not unlike certain golf course scenarios and their architects, experience goes a long way in having a comprehansive grasp on all the needs and then understanding the details with execution to get it right.  To me, I hate to experience a "first class" facility course, only to be REALLY disappointed in the initial experience by getting to the first tee.

However, having said all that, there is a lot to be said for the very simple and straight forward approach with a basic drop off, parking lot and big smile at the first tee ;D

peter_p

Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2006, 01:26:58 PM »
Carlyle,
Make sure the bag drop has a camera and taping system.

Joe Perches

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2006, 02:24:20 PM »
Does anyone have any examples of golf clubs that do this very well?

For a CCFAD, Lost Canyons in Simi Valley, CA.  It might be the single best thing about the entire development.  A longish semi-private drive several hundred yards from above and along one of the courses, to a counter-clockwise drive/bag drop, one story clubhouse/proshop entrance, bar/restaurant immediately adjacent to the proshop, bathrooms/showers at exit to putting green/driving range, etc.  It's well thought out, well designed, and well done.

Google Maps link

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2006, 02:28:53 PM »
Devil's Pulpit outside Toronto has a nice arrangement. It's the most well thought out design I've seen. Mike Hurdzan discusses it in his Golf Course Architecture book.



Joe Perches

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2006, 05:29:26 PM »
Devil's Pulpit outside Toronto has a nice arrangement.  Mike Hurdzan discusses it in his Golf Course Architecture book.

Google Maps satellite view of Devil's Pulpit

I admit to not having read Mike Hurdzan's book.  What makes this a good clubhouse arrangement?  It's certainly a good looking practice facility.

Doug Ralston

Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2006, 08:22:37 PM »
As a public golfer who is used to going to get his own cart, taking it to the car, loading, and heading for #1 [all after payng, of course], I have a side question.

At a private club, do you tip the person who loads your clubs? No idea what the ettiquet is.

Doug

Gerry B

Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2006, 09:11:57 PM »
my home course - The National in Toronto has the closest proximity of any course that I have played when factoring in car / bag drop / present clubhouse(which will change when the new one is built next year) / practice area / 1st tee and   18th green.

the  9th green and 10th tee are very close as well

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2006, 09:40:07 PM »

Noted examples of good staging areas include:

Pine Valley, Merion, Myopia, Plainfield, Hamilton Farm, Winged Foot, Hollywood, Neshanic Valley, Hidden Creek, Sand Hills, etc...

Steve,

I'd certainly go with Pine Valley and Hidden Creek as they seem ideally suited to accomplish the task, but, Sand Hills ?
Winged Foot ?  Neshanic Valley ? Plainfield ?

What am I missing ?
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Doug Ralston

Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2006, 11:12:38 PM »
No answer to my previous question?

Jim Johnson

Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2006, 11:22:54 PM »
Carlyle,
Make sure the bag drop has a camera and taping system.

Good point, Peter. It's amazing more top-of-the-line sets of clubs don't go vanishing into thin air in clubhouse areas.

Which makes me wonder...are golf courses in any way responsible in the case of a theft of a set of clubs from a bag drop area?

JJ

Jordan Wall

Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2006, 12:06:47 AM »
No answer to my previous question?

Depends, I guess.
Usually no, at least not where I caddie...

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2006, 12:11:28 AM »
At a private club, do you tip the person who loads your clubs? No idea what the ettiquet is.
At my club there is no tipping of the staff. The one exception is with the caddies - but there are very few caddies at the club - just a few kids that occasionally loop on the weekend as there is no formal caddie program.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2006, 12:11:46 AM by Wayne_Kozun »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2006, 12:25:21 AM »
Doug, we don't tip for standard stuff - taking clubs out of storage, a quick cleaning after play and putting back into storage.  Maybe a tip for taking the clubs out to the car if you are going away for a game.  The delicate balance is between being perceived as a cheapskate and screwing with the balance by overtipping.

Doug Ralston

Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2006, 05:54:32 AM »
Thanks folks. The ins and outs of private clubs [not just golf, any private club] seem confusingly social to me. Besides, of course, unless the fees are less than $12/month, my Visa will bounce about the Clubhouse embarrassingly.

Some of the more upscale publics I have played do have a bag drop, and load your clubs while you pay fees. To me, much more important among services is a nice clubhead cleaner and yardage book on the cart. [Yes, sorry traditionalists, but I DO like to know the yardage. Disgustingly modern of me..].

Most of the publics of course just send you to the cart shack. I can do that.

Doug

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2006, 06:36:28 AM »
Great suggestions, especially the covered bag drop and the camera/tape system.  A couple of other things to think about:

1) Clear signage for the Bag Drop/Locker Rooms/Golf Shop - Not everyone has been there before...

2) If the club is on a busy street, a "Right Turn Only Lane" greatly eases congestion caused by cars trying to turn left out of the exit.

3) Trees for parking lot shade.

4) One way traffic flow (In-gress/egress) cuts down on fender benders.

5) Try to make the cart staging area(s) long and linear.  Nothing worse than trying to find a cart in a six deep parking situation on a shotgun start.

JWK


Adam_F_Collins

Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2006, 08:12:22 AM »
Devil's Pulpit outside Toronto has a nice arrangement.  Mike Hurdzan discusses it in his Golf Course Architecture book.

Google Maps satellite view of Devil's Pulpit

I admit to not having read Mike Hurdzan's book.  What makes this a good clubhouse arrangement?  It's certainly a good looking practice facility.

It keeps the activity of cars arriving, bags unloading, driving range activities, etc. Away from the comparative quiet of the clubhouse and first tee. It creates a sense of anticipation as you move up the hill, away from the busy parking lot toward the clubhouse. As you crest the hill and look back toward Toronto, the first hole unfolds below. It's nice.

Brent Hutto

Re:Bag Drop, Cart Staging, Clubhouse Circulation
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2006, 08:55:35 AM »
It keeps the activity of cars arriving, bags unloading, driving range activities, etc. Away from the comparative quiet of the clubhouse and first tee. It creates a sense of anticipation as you move up the hill, away from the busy parking lot toward the clubhouse. As you crest the hill and look back toward Toronto, the first hole unfolds below. It's nice.

That all sounds very bucolic but I have a few practical questions about the layout. If you want to arrive, check in, warm up and then play it would seem that you'll be making that trek up the hill twice, no? Sounds like a lot of walking up and down that hill before you ever reach the first tee. Is Devil's Pulpit one of those courses where it's assumed that everyone is in a cart?

I'll grant the advantage of quietness around the clubhouse but that setup seems to be a long way from my own ideal of having a short and direct routing available for those who want to show up and play golf without spending a lot of time shuttling back and forth. I was a member at a club with that sort of spread-out arrangement and as a member who plays there often it got real old, real quick.