16th at Royal County Down

[Ed Tilley]

I was reading a discussion yesterday on this site about the weakest holes on a top ten course. Holes 16 and 17 at RCD were talked about at length but no-one seemed to be aware that the 16th at RCD has been completely re-designed (see link to website below).

http://www.royalcountydown.org/hole16.htm

I haven't played the new hole but it looks fantastic and a big improvement. Has anyone played it and if so, what are their thoughts?

Also - Hillside or Formby? We can only play one on our trip this summer but can't decide which.

[Tyler Kearns]

Ed,

Was this the hole with the small pond?

TK

[Aidan Bradley]

Ed,

Here is another view of the 16th a little further back so you can see the tee box.

Aidan.

[Bill Gayne]

Like Brian I remember the hole being shorter at about 260 yards.

[ForkaB]

The new 16th green must be 100+ yards to the left of the old green.  The old tee used to be to the left of the 15th green, now it is to the right.  I think the pond is still there, but very much out of play.

That being said, I like the changes!

[Robert Thompson]

Played it in September, though I didn't realize it had been altered. It is still a drive and a chip, with the potential of making the green. One of our group almost made it home.

As for the 17th at RCD, all I can say is ugh.

[Johnny_Browne]

Happy New Year to all friends at GCA from Northern Ireland. I played the 16th twice this week and there is a story to tell.  The picture on GCA is very good indeed - in fact much better than the hole.  The hole was designed by Donald Steele and to be truthful the jury are still out awaiting a verdict.  The Club are not entirely happy and the green is out of action at present as they are making further changes to the bank at tee shot range and to the slope in front of the green.  Here are my (very opinionated) thoughts.
1. The old hole was a great match play hole - driveable but a very difficult green that sloped away from you and frustratingly hard to get close to the pin even with a short shot.  It was however a little too short in stroke play competitions and led o long delays because of this and because the next tee was directly behind the green.
2. The backdrop to the old hole fell way short of most of the rest of the course and was accentuated because you hit from a high tee.
3. The new hole fails to excite the sole - it is driveable with the wind behind but the prevailing wind is against which leaves a tricky but ultimately unfulfilling drive.
4. The backdrop of the Mournes is very good - the picture illustrates this well.
5. The green itself is rather disappointing and out of character with the rest of the greens - it seems to be the only green on the course where the aerial shot is the shot of choice - there is not really a position you can put your tee shot to leave a nice pitch and run 2nd shot.  This is not the way links golf was meant to be played.
6. The Club failed to leave the old 16th which could have been played at times/during the winter or as at present when the hole is worked on.
7. The current changes may improve but as so often I think an opportunity has been wasted rather than grasped.
8. I think the changes were made because of the walker cup, when in fact the old hole would have been an excellent and exciting walker cup hole.
9. RCD remains a wonderful course and interestingly for those of us who play there regularly (I am fortunate to be a member, if rather a rebel member, there) the 17th is a very enjoyable and frustrating hole to play in spite of criticisms - once you accept the pond the tee shot and second and subsequent chips and putts require skill and nerve to succeed.
10. Once the revisions are complete I will report back with photos.

Regards,        Johnny Browne

[Pat Howard]

This was the one classic course during my trip to Scotland and Ireland that I didn't get a chance to play. Oh well, it makes a great excuse to travel back over the pond!

Nice work on the photos, Aidan, they look great!

[Aidan Bradley]

Pat,

Thank you for the kind words. Below is a little something to tease and lure you back to the Emerald Isle.

Aidan.

http://www.golfcoursephotography.com/ireland.asp

[Pat Howard]

Aidan,

That's just torture!  No, but I really do need to get back over there. I was 19 and just out of high school when I visited the first time. What an experience! In Ireland I was able to play The European Club, The Island Club, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock (not the original, the hotel I think), Baltray, Royal Portrush & Portstewart (prob. my 2 favorites). Over in Scotland I played Prestwick, Royal Troon & Portland course, St. Andrew's (Old & New), Carnoustie, Western Gailes & Muirfield. I got a pretty good taste, but I want MORE!!!

[Dan Moore]

I played RCD for the first time in September unaware 16 was a new hole redesigned for the Walker Cup in 2007.  According to my 2005 Strokesaver, it appears the new hole was designed to have a very wide dual fairway left and right of the central bunker which is built into the slope 237 yards from the back tee; a tighter upper left fairway with a more direct open approach to the green and a lower right fairway with a tougher uphill approach over bunkers, definitely an aerial shot.  As you can see from the photo in the link to the RCD website in Ed's original post the area to the right has been allowed to grow in eliminating the lower right fairway which would have extended all the way right to the far right bunker (you can't see this bunker in the photo in Aidan's post) in the photo.   Instead of very wide the hole is now quite narrow.  Quite possibly it was too easy to lay up on the right, but the way it is now doesn't present as many options off the tee.  However, with the Walker Cup in mind maybe the idea was to limit easier options and tempt the long hitters to go for the green off the tee.   A drive for the green that misses right is not a good place to be--I know even if it was my second shot and not my drive that ended up there.  In any event, as the shortest hole on the course at 337 yards I thought it was a pretty good hole and presented a dramatic contrast to the long difficult 15th.  I also thought 13-16 was a quite varied and excellent stretch of holes and the back wasn't as much of a letdown compared to the front as I had been expecting.  13 is a great par 4 on a course with several others.  It will be interesting to see the further changes to 16 and how it plays in the Cup.  

[Aidan Bradley]

Pat,

You have been very fortunate to have played the courses you alluded to in your post. Nevertheless, many more gems await you. Consider the North West, Rosses Point, Carne, Enniscrone, Rossapenna, Ballyliffin, and many more in that area. But that's just the beginning.  What about the South and the South West? Too many courses, too little time!!!!!

Aidan.

[mike_malone]

They need to grow some "whiskers" on those bunkers.

[Buck Wolter]

I have a decent photo of the old #16 (not in Aidan's league!)from two summers ago where you can see the  new 16 crossing from right to left. I could send to someone to post if you're interested. I liked the old 16 -- seems silly they didn't at least leave the green.

Johnny you're a lucky man, though I don't know if I could take being beaten up everyday like that.

Buck

[AndrewB]

Ed,

I was part of that discussion of RCD's 16th with Sean on the other thread.  I believe the hole I was talking about is the current one, since I played the course in August for the first time; from his reply on this thread, it seems Sean was talking about the other hole!

Sean,

Now I understand your comments in the other thread about the only option being to go for the green.  As I said, I think it's a bad play on this hole, at least for me.

Rich,

The pond is so far out of play I don't remember seeing it at all during either of my two rounds -- where is it?

From the description of where the green and tee were, it sounds like the green sat much lower (down to the right) and the downslope from the ridge on the left would have provided encouraging bounces on to the green.  Is this true?

[ForkaB]

Andrew

Per the website (haven't played there in years) it is now in perfect shank-foozle distance well off to the short right of the tee.  You wouldn't have noticed.  One used to have to drive over it.

[Ed Tilley]

I've been telling everyone for years how difficult RCD is - my standard quote is 'Tiger Woods shot 83 there'. I've just seen that the ba***rd went there again before last year's Open and shot 64! Makes you realise how good these guys are.

Aidan - I loved your photos, particularly of Enniscrone which I played last year. I can't understand why that course doesn't get more attention. I think it was Donald Steel who constructed another 8 or 9 holes in the huge dunes and it's now sensational. 50 euros for a round as well which is an unbelievable bargain. Maybe when Faldo desings his course on neighbouring Bartragh Island this situation will change.

[TEPaul]

Who knows how far back into the back pages the last discussion of this hole is now.

Last time I played RCD was in Sept 2001 for a few days and the last day I played it was 9/11/2001. As I walked off the 18th green was when I first heard what was going on in the US.

At that time the man who I think basically ran the club and who I was playing with told me about the club's plans for the 16th which was to move the green way to the left with Donald Steel as the architect.

It looked like a nice spot way over there and as I look at that photo of the new hole it looks pretty good to me at least in a photo (obviously lining it up with the Mountains of Mourne enhances it visuals).

However, I told that man who seemed to be in charge that I saw nothing at all wrong with doing the new hole way over to the left but I also told him I thought it was a terrible idea to obsolete the original hole too and I asked him why they were thinking of doing that.

He told me the only reason was so they could use the turf on the old green to make the new green consistent with the rest of the course. I said that's no good reason to obsolete the old hole and that turf could easily be matched on the new green or even on the old green if they wanted to move its turf over to the new one. (I told him I'd get in the best turf expert to be gotten to pull that off--no problem. I thought he said that was worth considering and that they'd look into that.

The new hole looks good to me but I think it was a crime to obsolete the old hole too. That could've been one of the great alternate holes anywhere.

Furthermore, the old hole, although some considered it weak because it was so birdeable, was to me one of the most interesting true "half-pars" I've ever seen and for that reason I think it was a crime to obsolete it.

Probably more than any par 4 I've ever seen that old hole had the capacity to really piss off a good player if he didn't birdie it, and so I ask you, who in the world shouldn't just love a little hole that can do that as well as maybe any in the world?

The new hole looks good to me but I think it's a crime the 16th at RCD doesn't have two holes!  And the fact that the hole's two greens would be separated by a hundred yards or more only makes it more interesting. After all, what other course could pull off that kind of separation of alternate greens on a short par 4? I doubt any other course has the space to do that but RCD did and they should've used it.

I don't know what they did with that old hole but in my opinion restoring it is a no-brainer.

[ForkaB]

Probably more than any par 4 I've ever seen that old hole had the capacity to really piss off a good player if he didn't birdie it, and so I ask you, who in the world shouldn't just love a little hole that can do that as well as maybe any in the world?

Interestingly, Tom, that's about exactly what Pete Dye said about the 18th at the Old Course.

Rich

[michael j fay]

I played there in July and spoke at length with the Secreatry of the Club.

The original hole was 248 yards at its' longest. The new hole is in the vicinity of 310 yards. The driving area is tight and there is real trouble far right and far left. The hole is still fairly easy but an improvement over the old hole.

Number 17 is still at best a mediocre golf hole although the club is going to address it next.

RCD has done a wonderful job of improving the 18th which was a weak hole at one time.

If # 10 were not a par three, I feel that they would reverse the nines at RCD. The front side is clearly the better of the two nines and #'s 16 and 17 would not be as noticeable if they were #'s 7 and 8.

RCD is one of the very best course in the British Isles but is on a slightly lower tier than Royal Portrush.

[Aidan Bradley]

Buck Wolter sent me this image of the old #16 to upload. Hope it brings back pleasant memories for those of you fortunate enough to have stood on this tee box.

Aidan.

[Johnny_Browne]

Aiden,
I stood on the front (red marker in the photo) tee of the old tee on Monday and hit towards the new green - unfortunately it was to a temporary green short of the main green but in fact it would be a much more interesting hole playing from that tee to the new green (almost visible left in the photo) rather than the new hole from the new tee.
Your photos are fantastic.
Johnny

[TEPaul]

Actually I thought the 17th green was a fine green--not easy to put it where you want on it. It has some serious left to right cant, as I recall. The middle of the hole is bizard but, hey, if a course has a pond that attractive why would they want to touch it?  

Michael J:

The 18th sure is a good hole now. For a normal length par 5 its dangerous right on through.

[jeffwarne]

if 16 had a 3 in the space for par on the scorecard (on the old hole) everyone would have been calling it a great 16 hole course.
New hole seems fine ,but so was the old hole.

[Dan Moore]

Anybody been to Royal County Down this year.  Curious about the work on 16 in anticipation of next year's Walker Cup.