Raynor and greee size.....

[Bob_Huntley]

In looking back at the size of the original Raynor's greens at MPCC Dunes, I realize that they were the exception to his general rule.

Having recently played Yale and Fishers Island,  I noticed that our greens were probably half the size of those wonderful sites.

In going over the correspondence of the years between 1924 and 1925 it would seem as though Sam Morse gave his imprimature to a golf course especially designed for retired Army officers. His real estate efforts were certainly directed in this fashion. The quarter acre lots were priced at $1500.00 with a membership to the club included....plus a years subscription to the Monterey Herald.

For those of you who have played Carmargo, Yeamans Hall et al  perhaps you could enlarge on this.

Bob

[Sean_Tully]

Bob,

I just came across an article in the SF Chronicle from Nov 5, 1924 that mentions the course and Raynor's involvement. It states that Raynor has already drawn up plans for the two courses that are mentioned to be of contrasting types. It goes on to state in the article that Raynor was already back east to complete his plans and that MacDonald would model the greens.

In replying to your question, it sounds like that might be the case on the Dunes course unless Hunter/Mackenzie changed the course that much! Interesting in that you would think that he would of designed something along the lines of his previous work, as I am sure that is what helped him get the commission. His Yale connection with Morse could not have hurt either .

Tully

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob,

I suspect that his greens tended to be large.

Westhampton has some very large greens.
That doesn't preclude the use of small greens, such as the 1st green at Westhampton.

But, if one looks at the "templates", NGLA, large greens seem to dominate the design.

Part of that lies in the "greens within green" concept.

Raynor's "short" hole at Westhampton has wonderful contouring and is a good example of the "greens within a green" concept.

The redan, Biarritz, Eden, Short, Long, Valley, Road, Plateau, Double Plateau, Hogback, Bottle, Knoll and other template holes had inherently large greens to fit the design of the hole, taking playability and non-irrigated conditions into consideration.

While the game contained an aerial element, some early designs gave ample weight to the ground game, and as such, the ground game called for larger greens.

I think it's safe to say that most, if not all of the template holes had large greens, and I think it's safe to say that large greens dominated Raynor's designs.

He was inextricably linked to CBM and NGLA.

[kevin]

Bob-

I have been very fortunate to play both Fishers and Camargo twice each.

It has been at least 3 or 4 years since I played Camargo, but yes the greens are large.  The PAR 3's especially, I think the Short at Camargo is about the size of the Short at NGLA, And I think they call it the "ALPS" another very large green complex.  

It is hard for me to recall how large the Eden and Redan were, all I remember is that it was very difficult to hit and hold the green.  The Barritz at Fishers is much larger than Camargo.

Playing at Camargo was my first experience playing at a Top 100, talk about intimidating, but very enjoyable.

How Awsome is the Punchbowl at Fishers!!!!!!!!  I love that place too.

[Mike_Sweeney]

In going over the correspondence of the years between 1924 and 1925 it would seem as though Sam Morse gave his imprimature to a golf course especially designed for retired Army officers. His real estate efforts were certainly directed in this fashion. The quarter acre lots were priced at $1500.00 with a membership to the club included....plus a years subscription to the Monterey Herald.

Bob,

The model that this make me think of is Southampton GC. It was built after National and Shinnecock and it always has been a local course. The green sizes at Southampton are on the smaller size, but this may be more due to changes over the years. Perhaps the members who post here can clarify.

I know it is poular here at GCA to say that Raydor did Yale, The Creek and a few others. However, I am not alone when I cast my doubt that the ego of Yale University would hire a Princeton engineer or that the industrail age founders of The Creek hired Seth Raynor. They hired CB Mac, and it is my belief that those courses had bolder features of CB Mac compared to true Raynor courses such as Mountain Lake, Southampton and MPCC.

Fishers due to its wind, terrain and location cry out for big greens, so it is my opinion that Fishers is the boldest course of the Raynor only portfolio.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Like a clock that's stopped, Mike Sweeney might be right twice a day, and this time, this post may be one of them.

[Bob_Huntley]

Mike,

A studied response and one that makes much sense, Thank you.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Mike Sweeney:

There's no question at all that Macdonald had a whole lot of input into The Creek. Who worked up the original design (the original blueprint) isn't that clear but there's no question that Macdonald made a bunch of improvement suggestions because I have some of them right here.

However, things started to go south with Macdonald and the club in the ensuing 4-5 years, and then proceeded to go way south. He and the controlling powerbroker at The Creek got on the wrong side of one another towards the end of the 1920s, mostly due to the severe problems involved in the so-called six water holes and eventaully Macdonald resigned from the club which he had originally been perhaps its most important member---at least in an architectural sense.

For George Bahto or anyone else who may know some of the details of The Creek back in the beginning---who was a man by the name of Nugent, and what did he do there architecturally?

(the reason I ask is I got a good perhaps never before noticed pick-up the other day. On the back of the enormously wide original Creek blueprint (it's about 90" wide and may've been intended more as a first "conceptual" workup) there's a very faint pencil notation on the back of one of the folds that says "for Mr Raynor or Mr Nugent").

It is my distinct impression that a number of the golf courses that some refer to as "Macdonald/Raynor" may not have had that much, if any, real architectural input from Macdonald.

The reason for that to me is that Macdonald appeared to write about those courses he probably did have some real input into or wanted attributed to him, and on the other hand I think Macdonald began basically dropping out of many things about both golf and architecture a lot earlier and for some interesting and important reasons which many to most of us just don't realize.

There is basically no question in my mind that C.B. Macdonald really was The Evangelist of Golf in America and in many more ways than most of us realize and in many more ways than architecturally.

The problem clearly arose for him when it became more than obvious, either generally, or to him, that American golf and many things about it was simply not going to either listen to him or adopt his Evangelism as he would have liked it to and hoped it would.

In some areas of golf  I think this began to happen even before the teens and with architecture by the mid 1920s basically he was done for good.

His response to Perry Maxwell's letter to him is indicative;

When Maxwell asked for his advice on something to do with an architecture project Macdonald responded;

"I wish you well, but I would not walk around the block to look at another architectural project."

[bstark]

  "Part of that lies in the "greens within green" concept"

Pat,Mike

  I always point that feature out to the Southampton GC leadership. It is very misunderstood. Our 12th green is a great case in point. Short par 5, the cross bunkering has been long lost, but you have a great green complex that has shrunk over the years. There is a great little donut just dying to be brought back in the back of the green. What wonderful pin placements could be revived. It also could be applicable on a number of other greens as well. I know our scale is smaller than our neighbors but we do have the old aerials to verify orig. sizes.

  The biggest problem is a lack of intellectual curiosity on the part of the club hierarchy. Most are concerned with speed of play and cutting down too many trees.

[Glenn Spencer]

Bob,

I have probably 3-putted every green out at Camargo except for the Short hole, probably that one too, now that I think of it. I ahve been out there about 15 times. The greens are enormous. I am sure that there are bigger somewhere, but #4 is monstrous. Same with 10. 4,10 and 18 are all in my personal top 10 for par 4's. 4 and 10 have a square or rectangle feel to them. The biggest false front out of these 3, would be #10. The first and second green are also very, very large, especially 1. Some of the holes I mentioned are very wide,(especially 1) but the length of these greens is what stood out to me. I have not, however, noticed the enormity of the par 3 greens, they feel pretty normal to me.

[gookin]

Can't speak about all  Raynor courses but here are some interresting green sizes at Fox Chapel.

Measured in square feet:

Punchbowl - 7,894
Short - 6,775
Redan - 5,830
Other greens run from 6,162 to 9,156.
I do not have the exact dimensions for the Biarritz but it must be at least 12,000.

I think most would agree these are large. They are all Raynor. As far as I know McDonald never came to our place.

[Bill_McBride]

Based on my trip around the Creek (wonderful course!   ), I am sure C.B. MacDonald did the original routing.

Why?

Because it has the same underlying routing theme as Chicago Golf Club -- all the OB is on the left side of the hole!  Old C.B. was not above using routing as a tool to help him win matches; his standard ball flight was left to right.  Similarly, every OB at Chicago is on the left side.

Not sure if that would have been very important to Raynor, who I don't believe was a golfer at all.

[Mike_Sweeney]

For George Bahto or anyone else who may know some of the details of The Creek back in the beginning---who was a man by the name of Nugent, and what did he do there architecturally?

Tom,

Perhaps the other George would know.

Is it possible that notation on the big print (I know the one you mean) is from CB or a secretary of CB and meant for Raynor?

Part of my premise above was based on talking with the other George and seeing some of the notations from club meetings. It was my impression that CB did not want to be seen as some sort of laborer getting his hands dirty to his fellow board members. He saw himself as The Evangelist of Golf ! When there were the problems with the water holes I remember see a reference by CB to the "engineers" who screwed up!

I understand that CB pulled back on his involvement on some projects due to politics. However, who spent more time onsite - CB Mac at The Creek or Doak and Nicklaus at Sebonack? In my mind, it is not close as CB did it over years at The Creek versus months at Sebonack.

CB, Ross, Nicklaus, now Doak that he is busy, Rees, Fazio ..... get the credit and blame for their projects, rather than their staff because they:

1. Set the vision,
2. Write the payroll checks.

It is my impression that CB was much less involved at Yale than The Creek for the obvious reason that it was a boat ride away, but that, IMHO, does not make it a Raynor only course.

[TEPaul]

David B:

What I do know about your biarritz is that its green space from front to back is 80+ YARDS.

You guys are within a yard or two either way with the greenspace length of The Creek's #11 Biarritz.

However, they may nab some space on the back of their biarritz for a tip tee on #12. Would you guys care to do the same thing for a new tip tee on #18?  

MikeS:

There is no reason at all, that I can see, to assume that Macdonald had nothng but a whole lot to do with The Creek's architecture. I think he may've even been the president of the club early on, and he certainly was in that group of its original founders (a group completely unequaled in the history of golf as "heavy-weights"). But as to exactly how much he did or specifically what he did noone really knows---not GeorgeH, GeorgeB, Gil, me, Bill Jones or anyone else.

[George_Bahto]

I believe Nugent had something to do with the blueprints for Charlie Mac and Raynor

we're trying to put together the chronology of The Creek as we speak (very unclear in many areas even thought there are mountains of papers and minutes)

[George_Bahto]

I think you certainly have to consider the Macdonald and Raynor greens being large, as a group ......... but they varied a lot, even on the same genre of holes and usually reflected the site and the terrain (witness the size and scope of the Yale property and their green, as the best example)

Unless you find virtually untouched versions of some of these greens it is hard to assess some of this information - too many clubs (and associated archies and supers - and members/committees) "knew-it-all" and often even changed the size and shape of the green pads.

Lots of variations were also a result of what a club wanted.

example Blind Brook (an older membership): "Charlie, build us a moderate version of National - if we want the hard version, we'll travel to Southampton"  ....  so there the strategies were built less demanding, the greens a bit smaller, even the Biarritz is not the usual version ....... and yet, a very fine (and fun) golf course.

The architect is still working for  the founders and there often were compromises.

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