Access, money, etiquette and common sense

[TEPaul]

David Snedden:

Lady Astor to Winston;

"Winston, I see you are drunk."

Winston to Lady Astor;

"Nancy, I see you are ugly."

Lady Astor:

"Nevertheless, Winston, you are very drunk again."

Winston;

'Well, at least tomorrow I'll be sober."

[Darren_Kilfara]

Generally, I agree with Shivas - the shame threshold of some people is ridiculously low. I can't begin to imagine calling someone I barely know out of the blue and asking for a game at a private club, much less expecting to have that person say yes or getting angry if that person says no. And frankly, if my reluctance to cold-call means I'm condemned to playing nothing but public/resort golf courses for the rest of my life (or paying maximum rates to play British and Irish courses, etc.), rather than the greatest private clubs the world has to offer, I'm perfectly fine with that.

Thankfully, a lot of people have been nice to me down the years even when I haven't been in a position to offer much in return - having said that, anyone here who wants a game at Dunbar should look me up! - but where I disagree with Shivas concerns his point about "having the rules of being a good guest explained to you". There is no single standard of cross-cultural etiquette. As Lloyd Cole suggested, some people actually get offended in the UK if don't accept their hospitality and try to pay for it. On the other hand, I was hosted by a well-respected member of this forum at his club a few years back, and I made a very poor impression on him because I never made the effort to contribute an appropriate share of the costs during our time together. I only realised this a few months later (during a thread similar to this one), and I remain so mortified about this that a small part of me dies a little death every time I see him post here. As the saying goes, you never get a second chance to make a first impression, and given the choice between a) making a different first impression and b) never seeing his golf course - even if that golf course had been Augusta National - I would choose option a) 100 times out of 100. Because at the end of the day, there are much more important things in life than playing great golf courses.

Actually, a few serious questions for the group, if I may:

1) Does anyone else here feel icky about even asking what the proper etiquette in a certain situation is? I innately feel that it's impolite to ask - i.e. if I don't know the etiquette in a given situation, I probably should't be there to begin with. Maybe the better question is to ask if anyone here who might be in a position to host other golfers at their club would ever feel even remotely offended if someone asked in advance about the exact "terms and conditions" of his visit, to make sure that he knew the ground rules beforehand.

2) Has anyone here ever accepted an invitation to a private club and then discovered that the price of being a good guest (i.e. following SOP in terms of etiquette, etc.) is more than you were willing or even able to pay? One of my darkest fears is accepting an invitation to play a great course by someone here, then discovering that proper etiquette dictates I should pay a huge guest fee, tip my caddie $100+, bring expensive gifts and pay for dinner and drinks, leaving me in a position where I have to either back out of the invitation or explain to my wife how I can justify such an expenditure. (Does this ever actually happen?)

Cheers,
Darren

[TEPaul]

Bob Huntley:

I just love your post #70---just love it. Spoken like the true man of REASON that you certainly are. We definitely need more Bob Huntleys over here.

With this in mind, and to incorporate into some form of economic equity the various unequal components in this vast country of ours, I hereby propose that the USGA add on to their slope system a method of rating or sloping clubs to equalize access reciprocity green fees and other access residuals.

In other words, the entire Monterrey Peninsula would have to be rated at 150 or above and it is only logical to assume that the entire state of Indiana must be rated at somewhere below about 25, or whatever it might take to get you to host some Hoosier at a Monterrey course and then actually motivate you enough to travel to his course in Indiana through reciprocity in one of these "home and home" deals.

The system should be called the "Bob Huntley Course Access Reciprocity System", at least until I can figure out some better name that forms some clever acronym.

I love it Bob. You da MAN.

Can't you just see the cook at the Terre Haute CC calling the cook at PVGC to try to weadle the recipe for turtle soup out of him in a blatant attempt to raise the BHCARS slope rating of the up and coming Terre Haute CC?

[Michael Moore]

Don't ask to play on Saturday morning or Sunday morning, or perhaps not on the weekend at all.

Put a nice picture of yourself on your golfclubatlas.com profile . . . it puts people at ease . . .

[TEPaul]

Darren:

While reading your post I was struck by something that may require another thread (but maybe not because it would probably be too hot or contentious in the end and may just open some kind of Pandorra's Box on here).

That something seems to be that above and beyond (or maybe below and beyond) all these apparent concerns on here about blatant attempts at access and problems relating to it there is some undercurrent of some "us and them" mentality.

By that I mean there seems to be an undercurrent too often that some of these great clubs and courses for some reason make too many guests or those trying to find access feel like their hosts or sponsors or arrangers are somebody and they aren't, like the club itself is some special world that most can't ever be part of or even see. Like a---he's rich and I'm not, or --those people are somebodies and I'm a nobody---like they're socially prominent and I'm just some commoner.

If that does exist, and I'm sure it probably does here and there, it's too bad.

That's not the way it should be, and mostly I know it's not that way, even if too few accessers or guests seem to realize the full extent of how much it really isn't that way.

The thing I think more accessers and guests should understand is that it is something like going into someone's home when they go to their club. But there is one huge difference there. These clubs that people on here belong to aren't their homes, they are only something they share with a rather large membership.

If GMGC was my home or I owned it I would probably invite the entire registration of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com all at once. But it is not my mine, I don't own it and I always need to consider those who belong to it with me.

My point is that any accesser or guests at most any of these clubs would probably do well to just try to act themselves and not something that they aren't or don't want to be and everything will be just fine.

One doesn't need to ask a host to fax him a whole laundry list of the club's culture and rules and regulations if he's concerned about doing something wrong. Merely ask him a question like--"Is there anything in particular I should know?" such as do people tip at your club.

There's no question at all that there are all kinds of cultural and social dynamics and complexities at golf clubs around the world but we, on here, are basically into just golf and more specifically architecture.

If one thinks about it, it's not hard to tell that golf itself---the fundamental essence of the game of golf itself, is one of the most remarkable bonders and levelers known to man, and to a large extent it has always been that way. It may even be pretty unique in that way. I don't know that anyone truly understands all the little and various reasons that is so, they only understand or sense that it is so--because it really is.

For us, these clubs and courses should not ever double as some test of who you are, what your bank account looks like, what your mother or father's name was, where you come from, what school you went to, where you work or anything else of that kind.

We are part of a community with an interest on here. Unfortunately our golf clubs aren't exactly part of that community of interest----they are only to the extent that we, on here, use them that way. And that is probably what everyone on here---host, guest and accesser needs to keep always in mind.

 

[Doug Ralston]

This thread is difficult for me to answer.

I am a new member. I have only, till two days ago, played public courses. I have NEVER asked for access.

Recently, one gentleman on this site offered me not only 'access' to a very upscale private course, but to pay for me also. He even offered that I bring my regular playing partner, who paid his own fees.

I was intending on thanking this person publically on this site, because he was not just generous to someone he knew could not possibly reciprocate, he was also a great guy and even helped me when I had a problem while playing. I see now that telling who the gentleman is would put him on the spot.

Having never been on a private course, I knew nothing of what etiquette was. We had carts, rather than caddies, so I was not concerned with fees and tips there. But this thread tells me I might have obligations I knew nothing of.

All else I can say is I came to this site with no expectation of access, and never would ask. This site is about golf courses to me, and I love to talk about them. Anyone here who offers access to people should be commended. Please always DO let them know what is expected, and they can choose.

Thanks again to a good gentleman!

Doug

[TEPaul]

I'll tell you one good way to gain access to golf courses and clubs all over the place. Learn how to play great golf.

If one can manage to do that one will not believe what happens regarding access.

Here's a good story in that vein.

Back in the 1988 US Amateur at Merion there was some flashy young very attractive kid from the Northwest who could really play and I think got well into the tournament, maybe even the quarters. He may've been slotted out to stay with one of the members who had the name of one of America's major corporations.

Anyway, it did not escape me that within a week or two following the US Amateur that kid was back at Merion (having been flown back across the country by the member) to partner with him in a Merion member/guest. Did they win it? You're damn straight they did.

If you want access to golf courses all over the place learn to play really great golf first.  

[mike_malone]

 A very kind man, Jon Lovito , hosted me and another gca er at Plainfield. He was agreeable to playing our courses in return and we paid the caddies and offered to pay for lunch. Unfortunately, he has relocated to London and I doubt we will be able to reciprocate.

    My lesson--insist on paying even if he is coming to your place.

[HamiltonBHearst]

It seems part of the solution being proposed on here is to make the guest "aware" of the etiqiuette before stepping foot on the property.  Sometimes it is just easier to only invite those who you know know the rules.  

Ah the rules some examples from my various clubs.

1. don't bring an electronic device including a blackberry.
2. no "checking of messages
3. don't tip anyone without asking
4. park in the proper spot
5. be on time
6. no "mulligan
7. play quickly
8. no shorts
9. no short shorts
10. collared shirt
11. no smoking
12. no flip flops
13. no hat indoors
14. no hat backwards outdoors
15. no untucked shirts
16. clean up your mess in the locker room


Who would want to deal with someone who would have to be "alerted" to such rules.  Most are just common sense and the result of good breeding.

Now the financial end. hmm

$75 for the first 3 guest rounds on mo,tu,we,th
$100 thereafter
$125 friday and weekend
$200 unacommpanied

cart fees
$$$ caddie fee determined by the quality of performance as walking up 18
halfway house drinks- soft drinks $2 gatorade $2.50 all food no idea untill it comes on a bill

grillroom- lunch you can see on the menu

Perhaps it is just not worth it.

[Glenn Spencer]

I am pretty sure where I got it from, but I don't like 'owing' anybody, anything. An invitation to play somewhere is just like going to someone's house for dinner. You bring something. I don't want to be playing a world-class golf course and be worried about money or anything like that if I am playing golf. If you have had some discussions with someone on here and he invites you to play at his place. I would say find out what he drinks from a friend or the pro and if he doesn't drink, bring a nice bottle of wine for his wife. Beat the guy to the course and take care of matters in the pro shop or simply call the pro after the invitation has been handed out. Find out the green fees and caddies and everything like that. Bring cash, I would recommend having at least $400 in cash on you and when you get to the tee, you are playing their game for their stakes. This way you never worry about a thing.

TEPaul,

Competence is a great way of getting to play the world's best or close to it. The USGA qualifiers provide a great avenue for access and so do the Southern Amateur qualifiers. If you are good enough to bang out all the state courses from tournaments, then you are not left wanting for much.

[mike_malone]

 I was concerned about Michael Moore coming to Rolling Green. After all he is from the backwoods of Maine and the only other Maine guy I have ever seen was that disheveled guy in the U.S.Am . Sure enough Mr. Moore did not disappoint. He had long hair and played persimmons.

[Tim Taylor]

Tom, I've asked for metro area recommendations a bunch of times and always received helpful replies. I trust the opinions of the GCA crowd better than Golf Digest or anywhere else. Granted, I've never sought private access.  Although it's been offered several times, it has never worked out logistically.

I think if you're reasonable about your parameters - I always give a mileage radius, a price range, and a description of what I'm looking for - folks will respond in kind.

Tim

Hey former house-mate REB:

That too is all very sage.  I have zero doubt your post inquiring about a city was an honest request for information, and even less doubt the day you described went perfectly.  But that's because I know you at least a little, and know the class you have.

The problem is that over the years posts seem to be made such as "I'm going to be in Southampton /Clementon, NJ / Lower Merion, PA / Mamaroneck, NY - where should I play"?  And of course that is rather transparent - and while it in and of itself effects no one, it just leaves a bad taste here, so to speak.

So I can understand your reticence to ask about a city.  I feel the same - most do, I think.  Which in a way is kinda too bad, because most of us are damn well just seeking info about a far away area we happen to be going to... But I'm with you on this - silence is way more preferable.

[Darren_Kilfara]

I am pretty sure where I got it from, but I don't like 'owing' anybody, anything. An invitation to play somewhere is just like going to someone's house for dinner. You bring something. I don't want to be playing a world-class golf course and be worried about money or anything like that if I am playing golf. If you have had some discussions with someone on here and he invites you to play at his place. I would say find out what he drinks from a friend or the pro and if he doesn't drink, bring a nice bottle of wine for his wife. Beat the guy to the course and take care of matters in the pro shop or simply call the pro after the invitation has been handed out. Find out the green fees and caddies and everything like that. Bring cash, I would recommend having at least $400 in cash on you and when you get to the tee, you are playing their game for their stakes. This way you never worry about a thing.

Glenn, what if you you don't feel suave enough to "take care of matters" as you describe? Or don't have the wherewithal to have at least $400 in cash on you (on top of the other fees and expenditures outlined, I completely forgot about potential gambling rituals)?

Cheers,
Darren

[TEPaul]

I'm sure I've said enough already on this thread about access, money, etiquette and common sense and I hope this thread has been helpful to all.

However, there is one additional thing I don't recall seeing on this thread that very well may be one of the most important things to both know and ask about for accessers to golf clubs.

That is that everyone should be aware of the way golf is these days and amongst the memberships of most of these top notch clubs.

Most every golf course that's popular, as most all the good ones are, do watch their RPY these days and sometimes like a hawk.

That obviously directly impacts all the members of those clubs and it evidences itself in a whole variety of different types of club policies on both how and how much or how many guest rounds any club member may host or do.

Some, like a PV have long had a limitation on the amount of guests any member can have in a year and others like Merion have a sliding scale of guest round green fees etc.

Obviously most all members would like to allot low green fee rounds to their friends and not someone they've never even heard of.

So, for any accessers, either directly with member/hosts or through someone else who can arrange it for you through a member/host, it would obviously be wise to both ask or to certainly be aware of what those types of policies are at clubs and with their members who host guest rounds.

Matter of fact, given the reality and prevalence of this type of thing today, I think that important question would be an absolute must and the very first thing to ask when someone tries to start the process of accessing any club and course.

[Glenn Spencer]

Darren,

I don't know if suave is a part of the situation, but I think it has to be done, regardless. For me, if I can't take care of all that, I would say that I appreciate the offer, but I can't make it. After all, it is only a round of golf. I have had to say look, 'I just can't swing it right now,' for the above reasons before. The guy then says, 'don't worry about it' and I still say that I don't want any part of it. These are my own insecurities, they may not apply, I just shared the way that I do it. I have places to reciprocate because of friends, but I haven't found a club in Cincinnati yet, and I don't look in the mail for my Camargo invitation, I have more details to iron out with reciprocation. I would rather the host just feel like this. Here is a guy that wanted to enjoy my company and play my great golf course, he was thoughtful enough to bring something and take care of all the fees and play my group's game for our stakes. The host shouldn't feel put out at all. The only thing that I read that I wonder about, is the necessity of wearing long pants, I am not sure where I stand on that. If it is the club's rule, obviously, and if it is Merion or something, sure. If you are just playing some club in Ohio, I would think that khaki shorts and a nice short and black socks and shoes are acceptable. Otherwise, you might be the only one in long pants on a 95 degree day, that could 'embarrass' the host as well.

[T_MacWood]

It seems part of the solution being proposed on here is to make the guest "aware" of the etiqiuette before stepping foot on the property.  Sometimes it is just easier to only invite those who you know know the rules.  

Ah the rules some examples from my various clubs.

1. don't bring an electronic device including a blackberry.
2. no "checking of messages
3. don't tip anyone without asking
4. park in the proper spot
5. be on time
6. no "mulligan
7. play quickly
8. no shorts
9. no short shorts
10. collared shirt
11. no smoking
12. no flip flops
13. no hat indoors
14. no hat backwards outdoors
15. no untucked shirts
16. clean up your mess in the locker room


Who would want to deal with someone who would have to be "alerted" to such rules.  Most are just common sense and the result of good breeding.

Now the financial end. hmm

$75 for the first 3 guest rounds on mo,tu,we,th
$100 thereafter
$125 friday and weekend
$200 unacommpanied

cart fees
$$$ caddie fee determined by the quality of performance as walking up 18
halfway house drinks- soft drinks $2 gatorade $2.50 all food no idea untill it comes on a bill

grillroom- lunch you can see on the menu

Perhaps it is just not worth it.

Hambone
I'm with you except #9. I'm from the Matt Ward school of guesting. I've had no problems with the very very short shorts...usually with knee-high (striped) tube socks. Its a good look...I've had strangers ask me if I'm John Stockton.

I also enjoy drawing a bath after the round.

[Tom Huckaby]

I had not read this thread until now and I now know why Mr. Huckaby sent me a very apologetic note earlier in the day  

Bastard - you're ruining my perfect gentlemanly image.

 

BTW to Geoffrey Walsh and Tim Taylor - of course sincere questions about the best public courses, or privates you can access through reciprocity, regarding any given area, ought to be encouraged.  I mean what is this place if not a information warehouse?  However, it's just gotten comical over the years... Trust me on this - other oldtimers will concur.  In a perfect world no harm is done or taken by these requests; however, just note that I am most definitely not alone in this feeling... unfortunately due to the in the background bad acts by a few bad apples, any information request like this is indeed seen - or at least certainly can be seen - as a request for access, not information.  Me?  I'd rather not run the risk - like REBlanks says.  I wouldn't want to be seen as making an underhanded access request like this.  And please understand I am NOT NOT NOT accusing either of you of doing that - I am just saying how it is, or might be, perceived.  Thus to me it's really not worth the risk.  It's kinda along the lines of "better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."  Thats' not a perfect analogous truism, but it's close.

Hopefully this makes sense.

BTW, shivas is VERY wise re this - I concur with his take 100%.

And Benham, when you least expect it, expect it.
 

[Chris Moore]

I am sure I am going to get flamed for this, but why is it considered improper to discretely review emails on a blackberry while playing golf as long as you don't hold up the game?  I understand why cell phone use is discouraged.  Without a blackberry, I would play a lot fewer rounds of golf.

Is this a generational thing?

[Tom Huckaby]

I am sure I am going to get flamed for this, but why is it considered improper to discretely review emails on a blackberry while playing golf as long as you don't hold up the game?  I understand why cell phone use is discouraged.  Without a blackberry, I would play a lot fewer rounds of golf.

Is this a generational thing?

Chris - I don't think it's generational at all - I think it's more like everything else in this thread - the actions of some bad apples give a sour taste for one and all.  I have zero doubt YOU can review emails very discreetly, such that no one will ever know you're doing it.  However, some classless folks just whip that thing out while it's their turn to hit, make everyone wait, etc.  It's like taking a phone-call in mid-conversation - just rude.

So of course it CAN be handle properly and with discretion.  But in so doing, you run the risk of being perceived like the bad apples, regardless of how discreet you are.

We've had the same discussion re cell phones... for many, they can't play at all unless they have it with them.  I gather it's this way for you and the Blackberry.  That's understood.  Just do understand the perception risk you take from the other side - none of which is your fault -but it is what it is.

Of course it's also assumed if a club has rules against cell phone or blackberry presence, that is followed, right?

TH

[JR Potts]

Gentlemen:

My name is Ryan....and I am a golf course Blackberry user.

There, I've said it.

However - I can play an 18 hole round, on any course, in under 3 hours if unobstructed.

[Craig Sweet]

I have a friend who takes his phone everywhere with him...calls have interupted many a good ski day, fishing trip and golf match....typically the call involves some sort of percieved crisis and that tends to ruin his day or piss him off to the point where he can not stop obsessing about it...the reality is, NOTHING short of a family emergency is so important that it can not wait another 3 or 4 hours for his attention...I finally just stopped doing those things with him because he could not understand why I so disliked the practice.

I would put checking email on a Blackberry right up there with this. So you get an email, what are yoou going to do about it, leave the course, start firing emails back and forth?  

If your job is that important that you can't get away from it for a few hours, I suggest you quit playing golf/fishing/skiing or find another job.

[TEPaul]

Hambone:

Thanks for the general litany on clubs and rules and culture and such but as for your #11---eg no smoking---you can take that one and toss it in the shitter.

Regarding perhaps the greatest course in the world there is a rather longtime policy barring smoking on the course and now the State of New Jersey has gone and banned smoking indoors altogether on me.

But listen Pal, I'm a Recon Marine and that type of rule and regulation don't stop me. I can go right into the enemy camp and smoke almost in front of them without having them even notice and when I'm done with the little weeds I field strip the tabacco and paper, sprinkle the tabacco to the four winds, roll up the paper and put it in my pocket and then eat the filter. The Recon Marine policy is that the enemy must not know you are there or ever even were there.

So delete item #11 from your list and don't talk to me about not smoking on golf courses or like a Recon Marine I might have to kill you.

[Tom Huckaby]

Chris/Ryan:

Note Craig's post, which I don't wholly disagree with except I do have a place in my heart for those who can use cellphones or blackberries discreetly - our friend Gib Papazian is a master at it.

Just do note this attitude - it is shared by MANY.  And Craig -again, I am not saying you're wrong at all.

You blackberry users are going to be up against this - that was the point of my previous post.  So use at your own risk...

TH

[JR Potts]

Note - I will not use the blackberry if riding in a cart with someone else.  That pisses me off when people do that.

If walking (and I usually do), I will check it two to three times a round while walking from the tee to my next shot or while waiting in the fairway (or woods) for my playing partner to hit.

[PThomas]

I am sure I am going to get flamed for this, but why is it considered improper to discretely review emails on a blackberry while playing golf as long as you don't hold up the game?  I understand why cell phone use is discouraged.  Without a blackberry, I would play a lot fewer rounds of golf.

Is this a generational thing?

maybe it is generational...

I don't have one, but if I was someone's guest and was always whipping out my Blackberry might that not be considered rude?