Access, money, etiquette and common sense

[wsmorrison]

This is a very good thread, thank you for restarting it Tom.  

As I see it there are two sides of this issue--of the guest and the host.  The person that asks for access should follow common sense and courtesy.  Don't call or email someone out of the clear blue and ask for a favor for yourself and certainly not for some third party.  That is very bad form.  Life may be short but it isn't that short that things have to be done in a improper manner.  

I like the concept of mentioning a trip with tentative itinerary.  If people see the thread they are free to invite  someone to join them.  If an invitation is offered, the responsibility then becomes twofold.  The host needs to set all the ground rules right away.  Talk about club rules and regs (proper dress, cell phones, pagers, changing shoes, tipping, etc) and the cost arrangements need to be laid out right then and there.  

I tell my guests up front it is very expensive to play the club and the green fees are $XXX and the caddy fee is $XX.  I tell them what they can charge or use a check (by the way, bozos from Norway don't know what a check is  )  I tell them they have to take care of business at the end of the round and have cash for the caddy.  If lunch/dinner is involved, I tell them to arrange pay for that as well.  

The guest needs to be punctual, conduct him/herself appropriately at all times and follow the set ground rules.  If there is any uncertainty, it is best to clarify early.  

I've hosted a number of really terrific people but have had a few letdowns from previously unknown guests.  Happily the ratio of good to bad is very high.  I've also been the recipient of courtesies that I either reciprocate or make good on the spot.  

We should be self-regulating and take the high road.  I was a guest of a friend on Tuesday and it was a delightful day--one of the best I've ever had.  I was a host last week and it was equally delightful.  My friend and his son spent the day with me and my oldest son and it was a joy from morning till night.  We got rained on, sat through thunderstorms getting in only 7 holes, had lunch and dinner, then walked the course under a rainbow and enjoyed the company so much.  These days wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the GCA community and they are treasured days.  Let's continue to do right by one another in a manner.  

[Brian Noser]

REB do not be hesitant to post I am going here where to plays. IMO   that is what this site is some what about. I am going some where I  have never played help me find a gem. That being said, Huck ic correct in saying it would be obvious if you said where do I play when traveling to The pennisula. I have made such a post.(not about the pennisula)

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

So I can understand your reticence to ask about a city.  I feel the same - most do, I think.  Which in a way is kinda too bad, because most of us are damn well just seeking info about a far away area we happen to be going to... But I'm with you on this - silence is way more preferable.

Huck,

I respect your opinion but I guess I just don't understand it.  How is silence way more preferable?  The website was designed to be a destination to learn and share information while leveraging the scale and open nature of the internet.  I guess some people might take a thread like that the wrong way but I'd like to think that would be a very small minority.  The majority would love to hear where to play in different areas of the country, even if they have no intention of going there any time soon.

At worst, someone reads the thread, huffs and moves on.  At its best, someone mentions an off the beaten track course that deserves some attention and/or a connection is made between two GCA members that evolves into a round/discussion in real life (and hopefully both behave themselves).  Seems to me the positives far outweigh the negatives.

[Lloyd_Cole]

This is actually a very useful thread for resident aliens. I'm pretty sure that in the UK one would never offer to pay one's host. But the host would almost never be a stranger. It might even be taken as 'low class'.. It would alway be understood that one would reciprocate.
I doubt very much that I have anything to do with the posting of this thread, but I was invited, a couple of times on my travels, by strangers, to be their guests, and I know now that I should have offered to pay, instead of 'If you're ever in Western Massachusetts', but I chose the latter. I am still friendly with said folk, I think.. but I wish this thread had been up a few years ago.
I also think that a UK player would be amazed and probably horrified to find out what the members of the better US clubs have to pay when bringing guests. The subs are huge to start with!! Am I right in thinking that green fee, caddy (often mandatory if you want to walk) plus tip, beverages could easily be $150 - 200 per head at certain clubs..??

As an aside, performing at the Invernairn hotel a few years ago and playing Nairn the morning after, the hotelier asked what the green fees were these days. I replied that they were about a hundred pounds. 'Oh, you can't pay that! that's ridiculous, you'll play with me'  we paid fifteen or twenty, and were shown round the course by an expert.

[Andy Troeger]

So I can understand your reticence to ask about a city.  I feel the same - most do, I think.  Which in a way is kinda too bad, because most of us are damn well just seeking info about a far away area we happen to be going to... But I'm with you on this - silence is way more preferable.

As a new poster last year I started two such threads, figuring this site would be a great place to find a nice public course to play. Since I don't belong to a club I wasn't even thinking in the private arena. With both threads I ended up receiving invitations to play very nice clubs, and I ended up meeting a few wonderful people and played a few wonderful golf courses.  With that said, I'm still leery of starting any more of those threads, but as this site is a valuable resource for finding great courses that may not be obvious to non-locals; its a helpful tool in that sense regardless of the access issue. There's some protocol and general courtesy that can and should be followed to avoid creating any difficult situations. The tentative itinerary situation makes a lot of sense to me.

In a non-GCA story and maybe the only occasion I remember where I asked for access was this week from a good friend for myself and a graduating high-school senior who I hoped to take to play a nearby club for her graduation present. My friend as a member of the club had taken me as a high school student about 10 years ago and other times thereafter and I was blown away as the course was the best I had played to that point and still counts as one of my personal favorites. On Tuesday it only took a few holes for the young lady to comment that she had thought she'd played some nice courses before, but nothing that compared to this. That made my day.    With that said, the only reason it was possible was because of the very good friend that I knew I could also reciprocate with, whether it be in a golf format or otherwise.

I guess with some common courtesy and thoughtfulness for others involved the entire thing can be for the better all around, but its sad that some take advantage of the situation  

[Dan Herrmann]

Andy,
For me, the reciprocity comes from having my guests having a wonderful time.  About 95% of my guests are guys that play the local daily-fee courses, and they've typically loved the experience.   Seeing them enjoy is what it's all about.

I don't need a gift other than a nice thank you and a promise to do something nice for somebody tomorrow.

Time for a funny story.  I used to work with an Australian named Dave.  Nice guy and he told me he was a 10 handicap.  So I invited Dave and a couple other guys from work out to my club.  
Imagine my surprise when Dave shows up wearing short pink shorts and a shirt that would make Poulter blush.  We had a good laugh and set off for the first tee.    Dave told me his wife urged him to dress wild.  To my fellow members, I chalked it up to his nationality  

Unfortunately, he was probably the slowest golfer with whom I've ever played.

If there's one thing I would share, it's the need to play in under 4 hours.  If you stink up a hole, pick up - I promise that we will still respect you on the next tee

[Greg Tallman]

Interstingly enough I have found the perfect manner in which to  obtain such invitations...

Go on a rant about the intrusive nature of palm trees at a specific club and next thing you know... invitation to 3 rather nice private clubs!

Just kidding Tommy... Look forward to hosting the event here in Cabo.

[JR Potts]

I love showing off my golf course.  I have received several IMs and have no problem with any of them.  All those who have reached out have been great.  However, TEPaul makes good points regarding the etiquette. And from my perspective, I will happily entertain as long as it fits into my schedule, I am reimbursed, I think you respect the game and would really appreciate the course, I like your posts and, most importantly, think we will have a good time.

I have been keeping a list at home and everyone except Huckaby and Spencer are still okay.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy,
For me, the reciprocity comes from having my guests having a wonderful time.  About 95% of my guests are guys that play the local daily-fee courses, and they've typically loved the experience.   Seeing them enjoy is what it's all about.

I don't need a gift other than a nice thank you and a promise to do something nice for somebody tomorrow.

Dan,
Well said, that really was what this day was all about! Granted, the girl shot 76 from the shorter men's tees and I shot 89 from the tips, so there wasn't much competition at all this time. I guess I'd better practice before I do something like that again!  

Also you're absolutely correct about the need to play quickly.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Part of the conversation depends on the club.

In reference to Yale, I have said a bunch of times that I am happy to make a call to Yale for any GCAer, known or unknown. Yale is for the benefit of the university and members, but obviously they are friendly to outside play especially during off periods. I hope people realize that I am not a graduate of Yale, and they only let me in do to a Cornell affiliation, so I am on the "B" team.

However one GCAer did not appreciate my status on the B team and asked me to call Yale and get them the escorted rate rather than the unescorted rate, when I could not play with them. I said that I was not comfortable with that. They kept pushing to the point where I somehow became the bad guy because I would not help their friend who I did not know and was traveling from overseas. Well if you can afford the plane fare to JFK, you can afford the extra $75 at Yale. They chose to go elsewhere thankfully. Please be clear the overwhelming majority of experiences have been good.

At Mountain Lake, there are now a couple of us who are members but it is best that you play when we play.

I also belong to a course on The Cape, and simply stated, I can't bring guest most of the time, since we really only go there during peak season.

PS. It is not Eastward Ho!

None of these courses are on the A team of GCA. God help the A team members and lurkers!

[Steve Lapper]

Oh stop being so bashful Sweeney.....

You know your "A" list memberships at certain East Long Island and Westchester venues count as well

[Dave Bourgeois]

I hope folks will still post tentative trips and itineraries on this site.  I started one the other day about heading to the Philly area to get around and check on some of the public golf options.  I received some great suggestions including Jeffersonville, Reading, and to check out a Flynn/Doak over in AC. Also, I got great feedback on Glen Mills which is one of the higher cost courses and certainly seems worth the $$.  

Just doing random searches would not have gotten me as detailed information.  I'm sure that my trip will be a success and I have GCA to thank for that.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dave,
That kind of posting is always welcomed, as well as one posting their excitment for a trip that have waited a lifetime for.

The problem here is that some are shamless and have no qualms about how they go about access. These people will either stop it or suffer the consequences.

[JR Potts]

At first I was offended with Tommy's rule-with-an-iron-fist moderating....now I am starting to love it.  

[Dan Herrmann]

Tommy, Tommy, Tommy.

You're my new hero

[Mike_Young]

Dave,
That kind of posting is always welcomed, as well as one posting their excitment for a trip that have waited a lifetime for.

The problem here is that some are shamless and have no qualms about how they go about access. These people will either stop it or suffer the consequences.

Tommy,
I think these guys are found out sooner rather than later and they do suffer the consequences.....it should not affect the good guys...

[Voytek Wilczak]

There are some tremendous gentlemen on GCA who, unsolicited, simply extended invitations to me, a relative newbie, to visit their clubs.

To me, that is like somebody invited me to their home.

It's an honor, and I cannot comprehend how one cannot be on their absolute best behavior when invited.

[David Sneddon]

Mr Huckaby:
You are developing a knack for the clever yet semi-insulting response or repartee (to the one and only Hamilton B. Whomever) that is beginning to remind me of the greatest the world has ever seen in that vein---the one and only Benjamin Disraeli. Good on you lad.
Back bencher on the other side from PM Disraeli:
"Mr Disraeli, with your politics and your immoral ways you will surely die on the gallows or of syphylis."
Disraeli to the back bencher:
"Sir, that depends on whether I embrace your politics or your mistress."

Or one of my favourites:

Lady Astor to Sir Winston Churchill:
"Sir Winston, if I were your wife, I'd poison your coffee"
Churchill replies:
"Lady Astor, if I were your husband, I'd drink it"
 

[Mike Hoak]

I make it a point to do all of the things discussed previously as well as leave a thank you note at the pro shop for delivery to my host.  It's an honor being invited to play at someone's club and should be treated as such.

I envy some of the folks on this board that are members at great private clubs.  But not for the reason you might expect.  One of my primary reasons for wanting to join a private club at some point in my life is to share my love of that course with others.  

I went on a trip to Hilton Head several years ago with my wife.  It was one of our first trips as a married couple and I had carved out one day to play golf at Harbour Town.  I was paired with a couple of folks that owned vacation homes in the area and we had a great time.  Following the round, I was asked by one of my playing partners to play a round the following day at Long Cove.  I jumped at the opportunity--while thinking in the back of my head "my wife is going to kill me."  To make a long story short, I played the following day and it was the highlight of my entire trip.  That trip also kick started my interest in golf course architecture.

I wonder if members of places like Cypress Point or Pine Valley still get a kick out of the look in their guests eyes when they get their first look at the course?  

On a somewhat separate point, I certainly hope that most of the folks here at GCA do not view questions about golf in their area to be veiled attempts to gain private course access.  Several members of this site have given me invaluable advice on an upcoming trip.

[Bob_Huntley]

HenryE
Full Member
Posts: 213
  Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #42 on: Today at 05:54:09pm »    

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I almost never pay a guest fee when being hosted at someone else's club, nor do I generally offer to pay.  I always reciprocate with an offer to host at my own club and never expect my guest to pay.  Been doing that for years and its the norm with my whole group of friends.  Host generally pays for the drinks and dinner after as well.  Come to think of it, I probably owe a few buddies a call.

As for caddie tips, I will always ask my host prior to the round what's appropriate.  



Henry E.,

I think your attitude is one with which I have considerable trouble when being asked for for access. I have had quite a few offers such as yours, but playing in Pebble Beach and being offered a reciprocal privilege in some remote village in Southern Indiana is not my idea of a fair trade. Your comment smacks of condescension. I have as yet, in some forty three years in this country, never travelled to Southern Indiana.  

A number of friends on this site know that I am more than happy to help them play courses in the area, but to think that an offer of reciprocity to some course in a remote backwater  of this great country would be a an adequate offer is not on.

If you need to play, pay, and be happy so doing.

Bob

[Brad Swanson]

Despite being one of the minority/few (?) here that have had more "GCA" rounds at public courses rather than private, I have been generously hosted to the most memorable times I've ever had on a golf course by a few very generous souls at some fine private clubs.  On those few occasions it was made very clear the terms in advance (pay for fees/tips etc.), and I would expect nothing less, considering these hosts didnt know me from Adam except for some communication here.  One particularly cool way to communicate the expectations of a guest was a brief course history info packet that was mailed beforehand which included guest guidelines.  Very cool, very clear.

Cheers,
Brad

[Bill_McBride]

Dan, I am confident that if you spelled out your interest in becoming a non-resident member of a club in that New York town in exactly the way you spelled it out here, there would be absolutely no problem in your getting that information from the locals who happen to be GCA participants.

I went through the non-resident membership drill a couple of years ago here in Portland where we are spending part of the summer, and actually learned that you need to call the GM's of the several clubs you are interested in.  Here in Portland there were only two with non-resident or national memberships.  Happy to report that one was a 1925 Vernon Macan course which I am enjoying very much.

[Mike Benham]

I had not read this thread until now and I now know why Mr. Huckaby sent me a very apologetic note earlier in the day  

[Bill_McBride]

One suggestion I would like to make to those interested in playing a variety of courses around the country is to come and participate in one of the several annual GCA outings -- the Kings Putter in California, the Dixie Cup in the Southeast, Ran's occasional boondoggles, Mike Sweeney's outing, the Buda Cup in the UK --

You will meet and become comfortable with a bunch of real gentlemen and the occasional lady who are devoted to traditional golf values on classical or neo-classical courses and always eager to talk about it and sometimes arrange an outing somewhere.  The "official" or "sanctioned" GCA events are always played on interesting courses; the recent Kings Putter was played on three private club courses of high quality in Palm Springs.  (Thank you Emperor!)

If you aren't taking advantage of this aspect of GCA.com, you are completely missing the boat.

In my humble opinion.  

[Jim Nugent]

"2. Tip the hell out of the caddies."

Steverino Roths:

Personally, I think you might want to rethink that one, particularly at some clubs. Sometimes members and hosts can look at that kind of thing pretty much as a negative. Can you imagine why?  

I'd say tip the caddie, maybe like those who belong to the club do but I doubt tipping the hell out of them will always go over that well.  

When I caddied at St. Louis CC, in the 1960's, the club forbade tipping caddies.  We got $7 per round if we carried double, which most of us did.  Only got tipped once: when the guy I was carrying for beat the reigning champ during the club champtionship.