Access, money, etiquette and common sense

[Tom Huckaby]

Chris:

Ok, it's getting silly and I am way out of my league answering every post here, but I have to say that's fine common sense as well, and very, very good advice.

In terms of establishing rules, however... I am only speculating - as I say I am a guest far far far more than a host - but I'd guess it gets very old to have to lay down ground rules, and after awhile you'd just hope your guests act correctly WITHOUT you telling them how to do so.  I guess better safe than sorry... but still....

TH

[Dan Herrmann]

Chris,
Unfortunately, not everybody is like you.  I think all of us who are lucky enough to be members at private clubs can tell stories of guests who, to be blunt, embarassed us.  Whether it's improper attire, pace of play, care for the grounds, or stiffing us - it's not good.

[Sean Leary]

One benefit of being a member at a Fazio design.  No one on GCA will ever call looking for access

[Dan Herrmann]

Come on Sean - Next time I'm in the NW, I'm looking you up!

[Sean Leary]

When I call Huck for access to Santa Theresa I now know to show up with an Arsenal shirt and a keg of Guinness...

[Tom Huckaby]

When I call Huck for access to Santa Theresa I now know to show up with an Arsenal shirt and a keg of Guinness...

If ever the term "audible yuks" is appropriate, it is now.

Oh jeez... I am in tears....

[TEPaul]

"But as a guest, wouldn't it be better to err on the side of more rather than less?"

Definitely, but all good things come of moderation, my good man. It's not a matter or more or less but if it's more it most certainly is a matter of how much more. The great PVGC cut out tipping altogether because various guests were beginning to tip so heavily that Big Ed Byant once told Mr Brown (J.A. Brown) he was actually the cheapest, skinflint SOB of his acquantenance.  

On the other hand, that wonderful lockerroom guy at Seminole who spoke to everyone the same way no matter who the hell they were or who they thought they were, was once asked by the Duke of Windsor (who apparently just loved the lockerroom guy) if it was OK if he tipped his caddie a buck.

The lookerroom guy said to the Duke of Windsor:

Duke, yooz is Royalty see, and since yooz really is Royalty there's no damn good reason at all that you need to be acting like some cheap sum of a bitch. "

[Chris Pike]

Tom:

I guess by establishing the "rules" ahead of time, I was primarily speaking about $$$$.  I like it when a member discloses the cost up front (but, by no means are they obligated to do so).  A simple, "so we're all set for Saturday at 9:00.  The Guest Fee will be $65", or a "you can buy me lunch and drinks" would suffice.  To get these things out of the way before the round benefits both parties.        

[Tom Huckaby]

More good laughs.... which is cool given this subject could get overly serious and touchy.

So TEP, understood, many thanks.  Moderation would be the key.  I believe I have no issues there...  

And Chris - gotcha.  Yes, expectations re exact fees and the like can never be a bad thing.  Again, it would be better in a perfect world if that were known (or found out) by the guest rather than having to lay down instructions, but the world isn't perfect and thus there can't be any harm in making that crystal clear.  In truth I was referring more re how to act... dress... etc.  Here's hoping that doesn't have to be explicitly instructed on too often.  I doubt it does.

TH

[Sean Leary]

Come on Sean - Next time I'm in the NW, I'm looking you up!

Dan, you are always welcome if you can handle the Scarlet F on your shirt at your next GCA event..

[Chris Pike]

...I think all of us who are lucky enough to be members at private clubs can tell stories of guests who, to be blunt, embarassed us.  Whether it's improper attire, pace of play, care for the grounds, or stiffing us - it's not good.

YIKES!!!

For a guest to not even practice simple GOLF etiquette.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Dan - I know, it's a stupid term and it's likely never appropriate in here, but hell I like it and perfection in posting etiquette has never been my strong suit.

It does please me though that this otherwise touchy subject can be treated with some levity.  Perhaps you need to know the history of this forum and its predecessors to understand that completely... some VERY hard feelings have occurred over this subject - likely more than anything we discuss on-line.

TH

[Chris Hughes]

I'd agree with you re the first part... but I'd also speculate that private clubs are not completely free of the classless either.

I agree - I bet that there are lots of Al Czerviks at clubs all across the world

Czervik, Webb...good members.   Smails...bad member.

Personally I think the easy way to protect yourself is never accept a blind inquiry.  

If somebody who is asking can't provide a reference of a friend you have in common then a simple "thanks but no can do" should be the response...there's just nothing wrong with that.  And if they do have a reference you should check that reference 100% of the time, and have that reference communicate back to the prospect exactly what the rules of the game are...

...because based on what I'm hearing clearly there are some here that don't understand/know the rules.

ES

PS...I suspect the ultimate correlation between "good/bad" and "private/public" is about nil.

[PCCraig]

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[Tom Huckaby]

Otter:

The sad part is I have zero doubt TEP had very good reason to start this thread.  That is, sadly not all do know "the rules" or if they do know they choose not to follow them.  Thus this discussion.

But what I want to know is this:  are you damn glad to meet me?

 

[TEPaul]

Tom Huckaby:

Frankly, I had no good reason at all to start this thread other than the fact I've heard some rumblings that some on here are feeling like it's getting outta control and were thinking of doing something about it. It may be apocryphal but I heard TommyN heard that Ran Morrissett was trying to leverge some clubs for access by throwing around the fact that he owns and controls GOLFCLUBATLAS.com. TommyN didn't think that was too cool and he was thinking about suspending Morrissett for about a month but that might require shutting the website down for a month or so too. That doesn't sound like that great an idea, don't you think?

Pat Craig:

Thanks for the offer of a night out on the town in exchange for a round at my place but that's a no can do, and here's why. Like you, I'm a relatively young guy, matter of fact I'm so young I can't even drink, so there's no way at all I can drink up a couple of bars, act like a complete ass and stick you with the tab. So what's the point.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom Huckaby:

Frankly, I had no good reason at all to start this thread other than the fact I've heard some rumblings that some on here are feeling like it's getting outta control and were thinking of doing something about it. It may be apocryphal but I heard TommyN heard that Ran Morrissett was trying to leverge some clubs for access by throwing around the fact that he owns and controls GOLFCLUBATLAS.com. TommyN didn't think that was too cool and he was thinking about suspending Morrissett for about a month but that might require shutting the website down for a month or so too. That doesn't sound like that great an idea, don't you think?

Absolutely.  Anything we can do to rein in that power-mad Morrissett character I am all for, 100%.

 

[henrye]

I almost never pay a guest fee when being hosted at someone else's club, nor do I generally offer to pay.  I always reciprocate with an offer to host at my own club and never expect my guest to pay.  Been doing that for years and its the norm with my whole group of friends.  Host generally pays for the drinks and dinner after as well.  Come to think of it, I probably owe a few buddies a call.

As for caddie tips, I will always ask my host prior to the round what's appropriate.

[Tom Huckaby]

I almost never pay a guest fee when being hosted at someone else's club, nor do I generally offer to pay.  I always reciprocate with an offer to host at my own club and never expect my guest to pay.  Been doing that for years and its the norm with my whole group of friends.  Host generally pays for the drinks and dinner after as well.  Come to think of it, I probably owe a few buddies a call.

Henry - that is the best way that this should work, and in the perfect world it DOES work that way.

BUT... what if you were doing all the hosting and little or none of the "guesting"?  At a certain point would you not get tired of the lack of reciprocation, or tired of having to answer with a partner in control of the purse-strings?  

And perhaps more importantly, what if you had no worthwhile club to offer in return?

That's my status and the status of several others, I think.  Thus I always assume I am going to pay, and do try to find out in advance what is appropriate.  Of course among better friends, it may or may not be necessary.  But the assumption from people in my place necessarily MUST be that we pay our freight.  The invite is more than gracious... expecting the host to be out of pocket for it also just doesn't seem right to me.

I'm sure you'd agree.   Of course your way is the best way.  But we do what we must.

TH

[Pete Lavallee]

 Are these the same guys that are not offering to pay a green fee? Very interesting.  

Imagine playing the course without paying; it's tantamount to using golfclubatlas.com and expecting Ran Morrissett to pay for you.

Hammy, please tell me you are the anonymous contributor from Florida.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I almost never pay a guest fee when being hosted at someone else's club, nor do I generally offer to pay.  I always reciprocate with an offer to host at my own club and never expect my guest to pay.  Been doing that for years and its the norm with my whole group of friends.  Host generally pays for the drinks and dinner after as well.

This brings up another issue with not wanting to stiff your host - at many clubs everything is done on account and it is hard to pay cash or credit card for food and beverages, especially at a halfway house.

[RE Blanks]

I once posted a question about golf in a particular city.  There was a reply from a member and he gave his informed opinion on all of the golfing options, and then made a suggestion.  He invited myself and two other playing partners to his home course.  We showed up, met, gave a few small gifts for appreciation, paid, and played. It a great time.  The member also sent me a great routing map.  All was great.

The problem is, now If I am traveling in this particular area I am hesitant to ask his opinion becasue I do not want to appear that I am looking for access.

I also find myself refraining from starting a topic on a certain city or area, because I don't want to appear as one looking for access.  

That being said, I love to show visitors around my club.  As long as they behave and pay I have no problem.  Networking can be done in a way that is sensible and polite.

[Tom Huckaby]

Hey former house-mate REB:

That too is all very sage.  I have zero doubt your post inquiring about a city was an honest request for information, and even less doubt the day you described went perfectly.  But that's because I know you at least a little, and know the class you have.

The problem is that over the years posts seem to be made such as "I'm going to be in Southampton /Clementon, NJ / Lower Merion, PA / Mamaroneck, NY - where should I play"?  And of course that is rather transparent - and while it in and of itself effects no one, it just leaves a bad taste here, so to speak.

So I can understand your reticence to ask about a city.  I feel the same - most do, I think.  Which in a way is kinda too bad, because most of us are damn well just seeking info about a far away area we happen to be going to... But I'm with you on this - silence is way more preferable.

[Donnie Beck]

Be courteous to members and keep your pace of play moving.. I have had some complaints from members about groups taking too many pictures and holding up groups in back of them.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom,
Amen....  My parents are moving to a new home in a city in upstate New York.  My non-golfing brothers also live in said city, and I'm looking around there to see what's available in the way of non-resident memberships.

I actually thought about asking on GCA.com about courses in this city, but wisely did not - for exactly the reasons you mentioned.

Good manners and tact never go out of style