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Mark Pearce

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Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #100 on: July 28, 2006, 10:24:27 AM »
Generally, I agree with Shivas - the shame threshold of some people is ridiculously low. I can't begin to imagine calling someone I barely know out of the blue and asking for a game at a private club, much less expecting to have that person say yes or getting angry if that person says no. And frankly, if my reluctance to cold-call means I'm condemned to playing nothing but public/resort golf courses for the rest of my life (or paying maximum rates to play British and Irish courses, etc.), rather than the greatest private clubs the world has to offer, I'm perfectly fine with that.

Thankfully, a lot of people have been nice to me down the years even when I haven't been in a position to offer much in return - having said that, anyone here who wants a game at Dunbar should look me up! :) - but where I disagree with Shivas concerns his point about "having the rules of being a good guest explained to you". There is no single standard of cross-cultural etiquette. As Lloyd Cole suggested, some people actually get offended in the UK if don't accept their hospitality and try to pay for it. On the other hand, I was hosted by a well-respected member of this forum at his club a few years back, and I made a very poor impression on him because I never made the effort to contribute an appropriate share of the costs during our time together. I only realised this a few months later (during a thread similar to this one), and I remain so mortified about this that a small part of me dies a little death every time I see him post here. As the saying goes, you never get a second chance to make a first impression, and given the choice between a) making a different first impression and b) never seeing his golf course - even if that golf course had been Augusta National - I would choose option a) 100 times out of 100. Because at the end of the day, there are much more important things in life than playing great golf courses.

Actually, a few serious questions for the group, if I may:

1) Does anyone else here feel icky about even asking what the proper etiquette in a certain situation is? I innately feel that it's impolite to ask - i.e. if I don't know the etiquette in a given situation, I probably should't be there to begin with. Maybe the better question is to ask if anyone here who might be in a position to host other golfers at their club would ever feel even remotely offended if someone asked in advance about the exact "terms and conditions" of his visit, to make sure that he knew the ground rules beforehand.

2) Has anyone here ever accepted an invitation to a private club and then discovered that the price of being a good guest (i.e. following SOP in terms of etiquette, etc.) is more than you were willing or even able to pay? One of my darkest fears is accepting an invitation to play a great course by someone here, then discovering that proper etiquette dictates I should pay a huge guest fee, tip my caddie $100+, bring expensive gifts and pay for dinner and drinks, leaving me in a position where I have to either back out of the invitation or explain to my wife how I can justify such an expenditure. (Does this ever actually happen?)

Cheers,
Darren
Darren,

A good point about differing etiquette.  A good friend of my father in law, who I barely know, invited me to play at Swinley Forest with him and paid for everyting (golf, drinks, a very substantial lunch).  He refused any contribution and indeed refused to allow me to buy him a drink.  In that situation I'm sure he'd have been offended if I had insisted.  We now know each other reasonably well and he still insists on paying for what is now our annual game at Swinley.  Perhaps this is a British thing?

In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #101 on: July 28, 2006, 10:24:27 AM »
Note - I will not use the blackberry if riding in a cart with someone else.  That pisses me off when people do that.

If walking (and I usually do), I will check it two to three times a round while walking from the tee to my next shot or while waiting in the fairway (or woods) for my playing partner to hit.

Ryan - our man Gib - the master at this (although it was with cell phone when I've played with him) - can take 15 calls and make 20 and you'd never know he was gone.  I think he did it while walking in the rough or behind trees, but the man was/is a magician.

So I have zero doubt you are the same, or at least try to be.  The question isn't can this be done discreetly - of course it can.  The issue is the perception risk.  And unless you have a HUGE reservoir of good-will built up, and/or don't give a shit  (like our man Gib I believe on both accounts), well, then as I say, use at your own risk.

And Paul T - of course it's considered rude - that's what I've been trying to point out.  Even the most discreet run the risk of being considered rude.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 10:25:48 AM by Tom Huckaby »

TEPaul

Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #102 on: July 28, 2006, 10:28:21 AM »
Craig:

Speaking of cell phones on golf courses---even though this was many, many years ago when cell phones were first coming into use I saw something so ridiculous and funny I can never forget it.

This was in a tournament and a real good scratch one--The Florida International. My partner and I are playing with a team where one guy was this big developer and on one green he gets a cell phone call---apparently a very important one--and takes it. Only problem was it was his turn to putt. So we are standing there totally non-plussed watching this guy carry on some business call not know what the hell to do.

Eventually, my partner goes up to him and tells him it's his turn to putt and would he like to put the call on hold long enough to play his f...ing shot or would he mind if the rest of us play out of turn and maybe meet him on the next hole or something?

That's the first time I realized golf and cell phones probably weren't ever going to ever work together that well.  ;)

Brent Hutto

Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #103 on: July 28, 2006, 10:42:07 AM »
One time playing at Myrtle Beach I got paired up with a threesome of youngish guys including one who had a cell phone with him. I'd guess he was about a 12-15 handicapper because he was playing basically bogey golf including a couple of blowup holes.

Anyway, he made his first cell phone call somewhere in the middle of the back nine and when it came his turn to chip he just whacked the ball with his putter from the fringe one-handed while talking on the phone. Very irritating, especially when it went in the hole. A couple holes later I turned around and he was on the phone again. A one-handed whack at about a 50-foot putt to a couple inches which he walked over and tapped in.

That was it with the phone and he ended up double or triple bogeying the final couple holes. Obviously he should have stayed on the phone a half-hour longer and shot a better score. He must have been checking voice mail because I never heard him say anything but he kept the phone glued to is ear for 5-10 minutes at a stretch each time. Weird but fortunately for me I'm not easily distracted (unless I'm playing bad in which case I start noticing stuff).

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #104 on: July 28, 2006, 10:54:20 AM »
 A week ago I needed to be available to go home and give a telephone guy access. I put my cell on vibrate , put it in my back pocket and shot one of my best rounds of the year.

   Yesterday I was playing like a dog. On #10 I decided to put my cell in my back pocket...I still quit after #14--back sucks!
AKA Mayday

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #105 on: July 28, 2006, 11:02:51 AM »
Thanks for this thread. It helped me recall that I owe TigerB $50 for my half of the caddie at Golf Club of Tennessee last fall.  

I do my best, but live in fear of an ill-timed Hillbilly moment.  May I request amnesty for any past transgressions?

Even when a faux pas occurs, I find it easy to truly know where a guy's heart is.  

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tom Huckaby

Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #106 on: July 28, 2006, 11:05:20 AM »
Bogey - this is why you are a great man and I admire you so.  Go back a page and read Mike Benham's post and my reply.

Note the Huckaby family springs from the Table Rock area near the Arkansas/Missouir border... so the hillybilly blood runs through me as well, and I too have my moments and need the same amnesty.

 :'(
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 11:05:36 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #107 on: July 28, 2006, 11:21:06 AM »

Ah the rules some examples from my various clubs.

8. no shorts

Who would want to deal with someone who would have to be "alerted" to such rules.  Most are just common sense and the result of good breeding.

Wearing shorts is indicative of poor breeding?  Please.  I know enough to ask whether shorts are permissible, but it has nothing to do with "breeding," which, btw, is a term that ought to be reserved for animals.  Some of this stuff really smacks of obnoxious elitism.  

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #108 on: July 28, 2006, 11:28:56 AM »

Ah the rules some examples from my various clubs.

8. no shorts

Who would want to deal with someone who would have to be "alerted" to such rules.  Most are just common sense and the result of good breeding.

Wearing shorts is indicative of poor breeding?  Please.  I know enough to ask whether shorts are permissible, but it has nothing to do with "breeding," which, btw, is a term that ought to be reserved for animals.  Some of this stuff really smacks of obnoxious elitism.  

No there's actually a small genetic sequence in the 15th chromosome which determines whether a golfer wears shorts at inappropriate times.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #109 on: July 28, 2006, 11:32:59 AM »

Ah the rules some examples from my various clubs.

8. no shorts

Who would want to deal with someone who would have to be "alerted" to such rules.  Most are just common sense and the result of good breeding.

Wearing shorts is indicative of poor breeding?  Please.  I know enough to ask whether shorts are permissible, but it has nothing to do with "breeding," which, btw, is a term that ought to be reserved for animals.  Some of this stuff really smacks of obnoxious elitism.  

No there's actually a small genetic sequence in the 15th chromosome which determines whether a golfer wears shorts at inappropriate times.


 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #110 on: July 28, 2006, 11:37:50 AM »
[quote author=John Kirk link=board=1;threadid=24814;start=100#msg459187

No there's actually a small genetic sequence in the 15th chromosome which determines whether a golfer wears shorts at inappropriate times.

Quote

John,

This genetic deficiency can be overcome.  Living in New England amongst the deer ticks for a few years scared me straight.  I love to frolic around in the bushes and the thick brush, so pants have become my golfing standard even though shorts are in my genes (raised in Memphis - hillbilly style.)  I've found that a good, light pair of pants keeps you just as cool as shorts, and also helps to keep sunscreen costs down.  

Tom Huckaby

Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #111 on: July 28, 2006, 11:40:22 AM »
JK - thanks!  And here for all these years I just thought it was toughness that had these guys from Wisconsin and Minnesota and Illinois wearing shorts when it was 35 degrees out....

It's genetic!

 ;D
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 11:40:35 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #112 on: July 28, 2006, 11:49:22 AM »

Ah the rules some examples from my various clubs.

8. no shorts

Who would want to deal with someone who would have to be "alerted" to such rules.  Most are just common sense and the result of good breeding.

Wearing shorts is indicative of poor breeding?  Please.  I know enough to ask whether shorts are permissible, but it has nothing to do with "breeding," which, btw, is a term that ought to be reserved for animals.  Some of this stuff really smacks of obnoxious elitism.  

No there's actually a small genetic sequence in the 15th chromosome which determines whether a golfer wears shorts at inappropriate times.


John, I'm not sure where you're coming from here.  If you're suggesting that it has something to do with breeding because it's more nurture than nature, I refuse to believe that my parents were negligent in not teaching me the great lesson of life that on 90+ degree days, you must not dare wear shorts at a snobby or old-fashioned club.  If you're just being humorous, then pardon me.  

David Sneddon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #113 on: July 28, 2006, 11:50:55 AM »
David Snedden:

Lady Astor to Winston;
"Winston, I see you are drunk."
Winston to Lady Astor;
"Nancy, I see you are ugly."
Lady Astor:
"Nevertheless, Winston, you are very drunk again."
Winston;
'Well, at least tomorrow I'll be sober."

Classic!!!

Sometimes I think Lady Astor and Churchill should have gone into showbiz.

"Ladies and Gentlemen, the Astor and Churchill Comedy Hour"
 ;D ;D ;D
Give my love to Mary and bury me in Dornoch

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #114 on: July 28, 2006, 11:52:53 AM »
Whether a golfer can review his Blackberry or TREO (let's not forget Palm who hasn't infringed on anyone's technology lately) discreetly or not is not the issue ... on a course where cellphones or PDAs are allowed, then go for it.

But at a club that disallows cellphones and PDAs, then doing it discreetly is a big no-no.

This topic is about Access and it would only seem proper that you abide by the clubs rules and the wishes of your host.


And don't forget to tuck in your shirt.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #115 on: July 28, 2006, 11:57:33 AM »
David Snedden:

Lady Astor to Winston;
"Winston, I see you are drunk."
Winston to Lady Astor;
"Nancy, I see you are ugly."
Lady Astor:
"Nevertheless, Winston, you are very drunk again."
Winston;
'Well, at least tomorrow I'll be sober."

Classic!!!

Sometimes I think Lady Astor and Churchill should have gone into showbiz.

"Ladies and Gentlemen, the Astor and Churchill Comedy Hour"
 ;D ;D ;D
I always thought Churchill's line was "Madam, I may well be drunk but in the morning I shall be sober".  Great stuff though.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #116 on: July 28, 2006, 11:58:52 AM »
I wear shorts whenever permitted.  When playing at a club that I think may be old-fashioned I usually call ahead.  

I think this is the first time that I've ever heard Amateur short-wearing criticized.  Wow!

In fact, John Cook represented Isleworth in the Butler Cup at Butler National last week (along with a lot of the nation's best players) and all except 4 or 5 players wore shorts....John Cook not included.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #117 on: July 28, 2006, 12:01:03 PM »
I guess I am late to the party but a non-golf vacation with my wife has kept me away.  Nonetheless I think Tom has started an important thread.  My take on this topic is pretty simple; you shouldn't ask to be a guest.  I have hosted a number of GCA friends and have offered to host others when they are in town.  I have had the pleasure of being hosted by a number of my friends from the board.  In each instance the game has been made because conversations on the board or in person led to the thought that we would like to play golf and/or share a meal or a drink.  That, at least for me, is implicit in the use of the term "guest."  The way to gain access is to make friends and get invited.  Its not very difficult given the generosity and shared interests of this group.  Asking advice about a geographic area is fine; just don't expect invitations from relative strangers.  Once there, act in accordance with the club's rules, golf etiquette, and in a way that would have made your parents proud.  Its really all common sense.  Finally, the best way to make a bad impression is to ask for access.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #118 on: July 28, 2006, 12:14:08 PM »
Shelly:

Very wise, very sage, where the hell have you been?

Seriously though, that sums it up perfectly, methinks.

But can you get me on _________?
I'm gonna be there next week.

 ;D ;D ;D

TH


ps - OBVIOUSLY just kidding!

David Sneddon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #119 on: July 28, 2006, 12:36:15 PM »
I am a public course player, however I've been able to enjoy several fine public and private courses both in North America and the UK.

I have had the pleasure of being invited to play a couple of local private courses, one through a GCA member.

In the first instance, my friend invites me to play his course once or twice a year, however I reciprocate by paying his greens fees at two public courses in return - an arrangement that is fair to both, financially, and also gives us the pleasure of not only playing together but enjoying 3 different courses.

In the second instance I was generously invited to play by a member of GCA.  He was clear about the guest green fee, which I was more than happy to pay.

My take is that if one is invited to play at a private club, then the generosity of the member in extending the invite is more than enough, and that I would fully expect to pay any greens fees, caddies etc.  Should the sum be more than I could afford, then a polite decline of the invitation, with thanks, would be required.

It should not take a course in "Miss Manners on Golf" to observe common courtesy to a person who gives one access, nor should it be too large a stretch to bring along long pants/collar/tie/jacket just in case they are required.
Give my love to Mary and bury me in Dornoch

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #120 on: July 28, 2006, 01:06:11 PM »
"Happily, through my many connections I don't have to make these calls."

Hamilton:

I'm pretty certain that golf would never be the wonderful thing that it is if the only people getting access to some of these top clubs and courses are only people as well connected as you are.  ;)  


I think of Hamilton as being our very own Thurston Howell III with a computer and a modem... he's an unintentional provider of comedy to us all... So much so, I suspect that Hamilton B Hearst is a second screen name for another member here... in fact, he may be our very own Stephen Colbert.   ;)

The constant referrence to 'breeding' in his posts sends off alarm bells for me... Hammy, my Vizsla is the grand daughter of an AKC working group champion. Hence she has better breeding than you, me or anyone else on this board. However, I still can't have her as a guest at my golf club because she won't wear long pants and continues to lick herself even whilst I am putting.

BTW-I have only seen two people cheat on a golf course and both of them happened at private clubs. One here and one in Australia.
Next!

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #121 on: July 28, 2006, 01:33:10 PM »
Anthony,

You wrote:

"The constant referrence to 'breeding' in his posts sends off alarm bells for me... Hammy, my Vizsla is the grand daughter of an AKC working group champion. Hence she has better breeding than you, me or anyone else on this board. However, I still can't have her as a guest at my golf club because she won't wear long pants and continues to lick herself even whilst I am putting."

You probably rememember the hoary story of the two elderly Englishmen having a drink after a shoot. One of their Labs was licking his jewels, whereupon gentleman number one said "I wish I could do that." The immediate response from  gentleman  number two was, " I'd  pat him first if I were you."


Bob


Your reference to your dog reminds

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #122 on: July 28, 2006, 01:45:48 PM »
Finally, the best way to make a bad impression is to ask for access.

Agreed. It's like inviting yourself to someone's home.

It's OK to do it if you've known somebody for 30 years and have drunk hectoliters of booze with him.

TEPaul

Re:Access, money, etiquette and common sense
« Reply #123 on: July 28, 2006, 01:55:21 PM »
"Hammy, my Vizsla is the grand daughter of an AKC working group champion."

AnthonyB:

Does that mean your aristocratic Vizsla actually used her paws and got them dirty doing manual working class things and such? I doubt any self-respecting aristocratic dog, particularly the great grand-bitch of a champion, would do such a thing, just as no self-respecting aristocrat would ever think of doing such a thing as getting their hands dirty or using them for manual labor of any sort, including cooking in a kitchen.

As Hamilton B. Hearst knows good and well most of our aristocratic grandmothers and those preceeding them even prided themselves in never even seeing the inside of a kitchen in their entire lives.

These types of people pay a price for this type of thing eventually though. My half brother's grandmother was one of those people. She prided herself in never having seen the inside of a kitchen, particularly her own. (she prided herself on that and also in throwing her half drunk martinis into the fire to see if they would explode ;) ).

Only problem was, at about the age of 80 she came to see my half brother and to spent the night. Unfortunately, she made the mistake of coming alone and the next morning she got up and was really hungry with no one around to bring her the expected tray in bed of whatever she generally was used to. So with hunger pains pounding she ventured alone for the first time in her life into a kitchen, his kitcken.

Eventually he came back to find her in the kitchen with a piece of bread pressed up against the speaker on a portable radio as she twisted the radio's knobs to rock and roll music and static and long-haired music and static and such.

Apparently she thought this might be the way one toasted bread.

So don't hold anything Hamilton B. Hearst says against him. The guy just never got around in the real world that much, I guess, so one can hardly expect him to know better than the things he says on here. ;)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 01:59:23 PM by TEPaul »

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Private club Insurgents
« Reply #124 on: July 28, 2006, 02:07:58 PM »
Anthony,

You wrote:

"The constant referrence to 'breeding' in his posts sends off alarm bells for me... Hammy, my Vizsla is the grand daughter of an AKC working group champion. Hence she has better breeding than you, me or anyone else on this board. However, I still can't have her as a guest at my golf club because she won't wear long pants and continues to lick herself even whilst I am putting."

You probably rememember the hoary story of the two elderly Englishmen having a drink after a shoot. One of their Labs was licking his jewels, whereupon gentleman number one said "I wish I could do that." The immediate response from  gentleman  number two was, " I'd  pat him first if I were you."


Funny stuff... here's a picture of my dog... not licking herself:
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k319/ytones/e019c287.jpg

And here's a picture of me subverting things from the inside. Note the Shinnecock Hills Golf Shirt:
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k319/ytones/IMG_0028.jpg
Before Hamilton B. Sends me a nasty note about having my hat backward, I would like to point out that I am actually wearing a 25th Infantry Division beret, on loan from my cousin who managed to make it out of Iraq alive last year...
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 02:21:37 PM by Anthony Butler »
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