Access, money, etiquette and common sense

[TEPaul]

It seems like I'm hearing undercurrents again of maybe too many or some on here trying to wangle access to clubs, maybe not reimbursing hosts if one gets it or other contretemps of etiquette of one kind or another.

This kind of thing through this website, I've never had much problem with or even much thought about except to know that others sure seem to be having problems and concerns in one way or another---not to mention that Ran Morrissett apparently doesn't exactly want this site to be about that or part of that kind of thing.

But on the other hand, before GOLFCLUBATLAS's existence I don't remember any problems with unbridled access attempts. All I remember is getting stiffed a few times by people who may've even been invited by hosts.

Nevertheless, and even if this entire thread may be inappropriate and gets removed, my advice all around would be these things;

1. If the one being asked for access has any problem at all being asked by anyone, and for any reason, for God sakes have the common sense and fortitude to just admit to those asking that you don't want to do it for any reason at all. This kind of thing should not be and I hope is not supposed to be some barometer of social responsibility or of decency or something.

2. For those asking to try harder and better to understand what you may be putting those being asked through, particularly if requests for access are indirect.

3. If it all does work out for Christ's Sake either pay or offer to pay for every single thing your host or sponsor may be out by hosting you or even any of those you bring along or ask on behalf of. If you have to fight him to give him the money for everything or even more then do that for at least a round (round like in a boxing match ) or two.  

4. Just ask up front if you're going to get access what you should do about timing, showing up, or anything else regarding what you should or should not do when there etc. Cell phones? My advice is just leave 'em in your car.

Have a nice day and happy golfing anywhere or everywhere to one and all.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thanks Tom Paul.

Just recently I heard of a story of one of our participants, calling a member of a certain Northeast club on his cell phone--not even knowing the member personally, but having no shame in asking for access. You know who you are, and you better come clean with me so I can properly chastise you. (hanging from the ankles and beaten with a wet, broken-glass-filled blanket is appropriate I think)

You've got three days to do so, so figure it out quick.

And to reiterate to those out there, if indeed this is happening and you should be "hilighted" as an instigator, you will be removed instantly from participating on this website.

This is Golf Club Atlas, not Golf Club Access.

Thanks in advance for understanding.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom Paul/Tommy N - so very well said.   We're here to discuss architecture, not finangle our way onto somebody else's club.

There's usually a way to experience a club's architecture without access - you can attend a tournament, a charity event, or even sneak a peak from a road.  No shame in that.

Heck - even the ultra exclusive Pine Valley opens its doors to the public every year for the Crump Cup.

But if you are invited - pay before you play.  It's expensive to host a guest, and doing so shows respect for your host.  Be sure you know the dress code and abide by all club rules.  And be a gentleman

[HamiltonBHearst]

So we have guys calling others unsolicited to gain access? Are these the same guys that are not offering to pay a green fee? Very interesting.  Happily, through my many connections I don't have to make these calls.  

Seems like quite a few here make travel plans based on where they can get private club access.  All the better when they can then stiff the host.  Who knew they could play top 100 golf all for the price of a motel 6.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom Paul:

Of course this issue gets broached often here, as it should if the abuses you mention occur.  And I don't doubt that they do. That sucks.

BUT... just understand that said abuses occurred LONG before there was a thing called Golfclubatlas... Tommy can confirm... there were several websites before this one on which the interested congregated, and the complaints about abuse occured with them as well.

So it's PEOPLE, not this site, that are the problem.  You just see a lot more of it with this site because this site gets a hell of a lot more traffic than its predecessors.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

JK:

That ain't my fight.  That's also not really the "abuse" he refers to.  He spells it out.

My sole and only interest in this is to correct Tom Paul and get him to see there was life before GCA.

TH

[TEPaul]

TommyN:

I know precisely what you mean but I wonder if the best way to shut down on unwanted access requests on here and some of the residual problems that sometimes go with it is to try to throw the accessers off of here.

I know I may be very different but I'd prefer to see those who get the request to just learn to handle it with more common sense.

Again, if for whatever reason it's hard to do and you don't want to do it just say so.

I've met some great people on here who actually asked me to get them access to PVGC, a club I don't even belong to. I'm glad I did it and I never had any regrets.

There was some guy from the south I don't know at all who IMed me recently and asked if I could arrange for access for him and another to PV.

I don't really have any problem with that particularly if someone acts like he did. He was so polite and said in the IM that if it was any problem at all he sure understood. I IMed back and said it sort of was a problem and he IMed back and said he completely understood. He got on through someone else and good for him. I've never met him but he sure had good etiquette and good common sense. If he ever wants to come play my place I'd be happy to host him sight unseen.

It's those that seem to almost automatically expect that they have some right to ask for access anywhere and then seem to get pissed if it can't happen that just baffle me.

And then if someone does get access and they stiff a host or sponsor in any way at all or embarrass him while there, that's a whole different matter. I would throw someone like that off the site if I were you. I just wouldn't throw someone off here simply for asking, because what if they did it really nicely and it all worked great in the end?. If I felt that way I probably never would've even met the likes of Andrew Bernstein, or Jeff Mingay or Brian Phillips and that would have been my real regret and my own lose.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Mr. Huckaby

You are correct it is people but it is people with NO CLASS.  That is why there are private clubs in the first place.

[TEPaul]

"Happily, through my many connections I don't have to make these calls."

Hamilton:

I'm pretty certain that golf would never be the wonderful thing that it is if the only people getting access to some of these top clubs and courses are only people as well connected as you are.    

[Steve_Roths]

Having been a guest at private clubs over the years I have always followed a few rules.

1.  Get there early and pay your guest fee.

2. Tip the hell out of the caddies .

3. Always buy something in the pro shop.

As for the caddies, I would rather the caddies gush about my tip if my host ever asked them if I took care of them.  And for the pro shop, I realize that the pros make their living to some degree from people buying a shirt or hat in their shop.  So why not help out.

[Jason Topp]

Tom:

Thanks for starting the thread.  I appreciate having this issue openly and directly addressed.  

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Tom,

You beat me to that quote on access.

I don't have a problem with people asking for access as long as it is done in the proper fashion.  And I agree with JK (whose post was removed after I read it) that members should view any request as a great compliment but should feel comfotable saying no when they are not comfortable extending an invitation.  That's part of the reason that I don't have a problem if someone posts an itinerary of an upcoming trip... it lets other GCA members know someone is travelling into their neck of the woods and it provides a non-confrontational way for someone to extend an invitation if they feel comfortable doing so.  These threads should not dominate the site, but they shouldn't be discouraged either.  I have played 2 or 3 wonderful courses as a result of proactive invitations from other members and at least one of them was a place I never would have thought to include except for the invitation.

One would hope that the dialogue on GCA would improve as more members interact with each other and play more rounds on different courses.  However, the interaction needs to be done with class and GCA members must hold themselves to the highest standards.

[Brian Noser]

 I am traveling to Pebble beach in 2 weeks anyone know of a good place to play ..... just kidding.

This is a touchey subject I am staying out of it.

[Andy Scanlon]

Tom:

This is an interesting thread.  I know I am happy to host anyone who wanted to play at my place (whether a member of GCA or not) but would expect that person to follow certain protocols of etiquette (e.g., be on time, at least offer to pay their guest fee, conduct themself in an acceptable manner) so it's distressing to hear instances of etiquette breaches.  I think it is a privilege to be permitted to play at private clubs and would certainly be horrified if someone kind enough to host me at their club felt I did not act in accordance with their expectations.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mr. Huckaby

You are correct it is people but it is people with NO CLASS.  That is why there are private clubs in the first place.

Mr. Hearst (although it's odd addressing you that way given there's zero chance that's your real name):

I'd agree with you re the first part... but I'd also speculate that private clubs are not completely free of the classless either.

 

[Ryan Crago]

Mr. Huckaby

You are correct it is people but it is people with NO CLASS.  That is why there are private clubs in the first place.

Mr. Hearst (although it's odd addressing you that way given there's zero chance that's your real name):

I'd agree with you re the first part... but I'd also speculate that private clubs are not completely free of the classless either.

 

i'd also add that many with CLASS are not members of private clubs.  

[Wayne_Kozun]

I'd agree with you re the first part... but I'd also speculate that private clubs are not completely free of the classless either.

I agree - I bet that there are lots of Al Czerviks at clubs all across the world

[Tom Huckaby]

And I'd agree with both Wayne and Ryan.  I doubt Hamilton meant this to be mutually exclusive, however.  But still it's worth making sure.

TH

[Brian Noser]

These are all good suggestions, be on time, know the club rules, be curtious pay your fees and offer to buy your host lunch, dinner, anything to show your thanks. Use common sense as stated Above. I know I was not going to get involed but it irks me to think some people ask for somthing and they get it, then they are A$$es about it.

Could it have been the first time and did not know the protocal sure...now they know becasue of this post. Don't let it happen again

[TEPaul]

"2. Tip the hell out of the caddies."

Steverino Roths:

Personally, I think you might want to rethink that one, particularly at some clubs. Sometimes members and hosts can look at that kind of thing pretty much as a negative. Can you imagine why?  

I'd say tip the caddie, maybe like those who belong to the club do but I doubt tipping the hell out of them will always go over that well.  

[Philip Gawith]

I too am pleased this topic has come up and for the common-sense tone of discussion.

Although this site is obviously not about access, it is manifestly a community of (up to a point) like minded people and communities grow stronger when the members do well by each other, and helping others do what they cannot do alone is obviously one such way.

Of course, as others have said, much depends on how you go about it, and opportunistic cold-calls are obviously hugely inappropriate. On other hand, I share the view of others that a well-handled approach is one that I am more than happy- indeed, keen - to receive.

My thoughts on this topic could be summarised as follows:

1 - There is nothing wrong with wanting to play the best courses in the world (it would be strange if you did not), assuming your interest extends beyond crude trophy hunting.
2 - Where I can pay to play I am more than happy to do so.
3 - You cannot play many of these courses, especially in the US, without invitation or assistance.
4 - Best of all is to be invited, but others cannot be clairvoyant about your wishes and your whereabouts, so it is reasonable to seek assistance with access provided - $64m caveat   - you do it the right way.
5 - If you are patient and in good faith, you should get there in the end!
6 - Personally, I have only had pleasure from meeting other GCAers to play golf, both as host and guest. I hope much more lies ahead!

[TEPaul]

Mr Huckaby:

You are developing a knack for the clever yet semi-insulting response or repartee (to the one and only Hamilton B. Whomever) that is beginning to remind me of the greatest the world has ever seen in that vein---the one and only Benjamin Disraeli. Good on you lad.

Back bencher on the other side from PM Disraeli:

"Mr Disraeli, with your politics and your immoral ways you will surely die on the gallows or of syphylis."

Disraeli to the back bencher:

"Sir, that depends on whether I embrace your politics or your mistress."

[Tom Huckaby]

Philip:

That is incredibly wise and shows perfect common sense and really ought to be the end word on this subject.  I'm sure it won't, but it should be.  Very, very, well said - all of it.

TEP:

Of course extreme over-tipping one sit well with a member because then an expectation is created, right?  But as a guest, wouldn't it be better to err on the side of more rather than less?  That is, I can't imagine paying or tipping a caddie LESS than a member suggests... that to me would be horrible.  Paying more, well... I'd explain it to the member by saying the caddie was GREAT and he deserves it.  BTW, please advise if I have this wrong... As a guest about 100 times more than a host, I am all ears and open to education.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Mr Huckaby:

You are developing a knack for the clever yet semi-insulting response or repartee that is beginning to remind me of the greatest the world has ever seen in that vein---the one and only Benjamin Disraeli. Good on you lad.

Back bencher on the other side from PM Disraeli:

"Mr Disraeli, with your politics and your immoral ways you will surely die on the gallows or of syphylis."

Disraeli to the back bencher:

"Sir, that depends on whether I embrace your politics or your mistress."

Much obliged - and love that story.  

Just understand that's my intent only SOME of the time.  Most of the time I am asking very sincere questions, like the one I just posed.

TH

[Chris Pike]

What would be the harm in just establishing the rules with someone before they played your club?  I've been a guest at many private clubs (none associated with any GCA members) and have never had a problem with a member laying down the ground rules ahead of time.  Golf costs money to play, and I don't think the average person with an ounce of consideration would think otherwise.  

Regarding etiquette, a nice touch that I've found is to send the member a thank you gift and card afterward.  Pay attention during the round, lunch, etc. and you'll find something that the member likes.  For example, if his drink is Grey Goose & Tonic, then send him a bottle of Grey Goose.  It's a simple gift with a personalized touch.  

Remember, granting access is the real gift.  After that, the member should have no further obligation, cost, etc.