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Marc Haring

Parkland courses playing like links.
« on: July 29, 2006, 03:39:38 AM »
I am sure many in the northern hemisphere are in the same boat as us in the UK, with the full drought being experienced. Some members argue that parkland courses should not play or look like a links course. Their complaint is of greens that are too fast and firm and not aesthetically pleasing to the eye. Do they have a valid argument? Should parkland courses always be green, lush, defined, soft? Is there a counter argument?

ForkaB

Re:Parkland courses playing like links.
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2006, 04:45:07 AM »
No, Mark

Despite Tom Paul's wafflings and prevarications, the "Ideal Maintenace Meld" for ANY course is fast and firm.  Parland courses can "get it" either through favourable meteorology (i.e. this summer) or through aggresive and courageous maintenance practices.  There really is no argument for "slow and soft."  Anywhere, anytime.

Hopefully constructively

Rich

Doug Ralston

Re:Parkland courses playing like links.
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2006, 05:39:43 AM »
Pooh pooh! [sorry, must pooh pooh RG  :D]

Courses need to be what they are. Plenty of great 'target golf' courses out there, that would just be wrong if converted to 'firm and fast'. Dale Hollow Lake SP in KY for example. If it is too 'firm' you simply cannot hold the fairways. With it's beautiful zoysia, it is designed [Ault Bro] to BE a target golf course. It's silly to think golf is ONLY good on links style courses.

Besides, a dry brown course in a verdant green forest LOOKS silly out of place too.

If you have verdant forest, build your course with it, if you have sand hills, thats the ticket. If you are stuck with useless land "between the sea and the farmland", may as well use it for golf, so a nice 'firm and fast' links style is in order!

ForkaB

Re:Parkland courses playing like links.
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2006, 06:58:21 AM »
Doug

Yo, yo!

I actually agree with you!  A lot (maybe even the vast majority) of parkland courses ought to be fast and soft.  Including most US Open/PGA venues.  If the Pebble Beach greens ever played really (linkslike) firm, with USGA rough surrounding them, nobody would ever finish 72 holes in less than 300 strokes

It's cool when these venues (e.g. Merion, Pinehurst) try to get to links standards, but they can't, except occasionally for short periods.  Their IMM is in a diffent world than Hoylake.  In many ways due to elevation changes, or lack thereof, as you say.  That's all I wanted to say. :)

Cheers

Rich

Philip Gawith

Re:Parkland courses playing like links.
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2006, 07:00:31 AM »
Doug - I think you are wrong. Courses do not have to be one or other. My home course,  Huntercombe,  is a very heavily wooded course, but it still plays like an inland links in the summer. During winter, when fairways are damp and greens soft, you can play target golf.

But during summer, especially a dry one like now, the course is a completely different prospect and has to be played like a links. This is perfectly possible because on 17 of the 18 greens you can run your ball up to the hole - you do not have to go the aerial route. But that, I suppose, is because it is a traditional design.

You would be right in the event that your course forced you to hit elevated approaches to the green - in that case not being able to hold greens would render it all a bit of a farce.

For what it is worth, I much prefer my course when it is playing shorter and fast-running like it is now because  it requires better course management and more imagination with your approach shots.

TEPaul

Re:Parkland courses playing like links.
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2006, 07:55:27 AM »
"Should parkland courses always be green, lush, defined, soft? Is there a counter argument?"

Marc:

This is a very good question, even if it appears it has not yet become that much of a question at various parkland courses.

Also, and as usual, Rich Goodale is wrong about the Ideal Maintenance Meld and Doug Ralston is absolutely right.

The IMM philosophy has so far generally been used with classic style courses which certainly include the "parkland" style or look, but that is not to say that their IMM of firmness generally "through the green" and particularly on the green surfaces should be transposed to all types and styles of courses and architecture around the world.

Obviously, we can certainly see that there are a number of modern age primarily aerially designed courses around the world now and at the very least the IMM for them should logically include green surfaces that may be fast but are necessarily more receptive to aerial shots (ie softer rather than firmer green surfaces) than many of the classic designs.

Again, one of the primary philosophies of the IMM is that it be "course specific", that any golf course's architectural style and design intent needs to be carefully analyzed and maintenance practices needed to be designed to specifically highlight it's inherent design options and design intent.

The IMM is to get away from the old "one size fits all" mentality of maintenance practices that seems to have occured prevalently in the second half of the 20th century. That used to be basically soft and over-irrigated for most all golf courses (a "one size fits all" mentality of soft and receptive for all types and styles of architecture). Now firm and fast is coming back for those that are designed for it, but that doesn't mean it needs to be applied, iN ALL ASPECTS, to those that are not exactly designed for it.

In other words, the IMM for some modern aerial designed courses should not be exactly the same as it should be for most of the pre-WW2 classically designed courses.

Clearly the "parkland" style classic era golf course and its architecture is an interesting variation that needs to be analyzed carefully, and certainly when it comes to its "look" through maintenance practices.

For instance, the prevalent and heavy use of areas of high fescue, is, in my opinion, not the look of a classic parkland course, and I feel those who use it on parkland style courses are doing something sort of antithetical.

Aronimink (a classic American Parkland Style course) did it in their recent restoration and it didn't play very well and certainly looked pretty odd and they have since removed most of it, and certainly from areas anywhere near play.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 08:02:36 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Parkland courses playing like links.
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2006, 08:23:40 AM »
Marc:

This is not just a good quesiton, it's an incredibly good question and it touches on a larger subject and question I'm not sure I've seen much discussed or considered on the website in all its years.

And that larger question is---what are clubs to do when the launch into restorations and such when it comes to attempting to more precisely "define" the type and style and particuarly the "look" of the course they have or want to have?

It becomes even more complicated with courses that are not exactly of a particular defined style such as Merion East or Oakmont. They may be pretty unique in "look" and style.

But this becomes even more complex when they begin to do things like remove their trees and revert back to the more open look they once had and were perhaps intended to have.

And then it becomes extra complex with a course like The Creek in Long Island that actually is, and naturally, three separate and distinct "looks" and styles---eg "Parkland" (1-5), a links look (6-7-8-15-16), a seaside look (9,10,11,12,13,14) and something of a meld in their 17 and 18).

The other day we were up there talking about this very thing and the Golf Chairman seemed to want to use more fescue on those opening parkland look holes to tie the look of the entire course together better.

I said I thought that would be wrong and what they should try to do is highlight the distinctions in at the juxtapositons of their three seaparate looks as much as they can by not using and fescue in the parland area, and also removing some vegetation in the naturally sandy seaside holes and exposing far more sand waste areas thereby really HIGHLIGHTING the juxtaposition of the course's unique three separate natual "looks".

TEPaul

Re:Parkland courses playing like links.
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2006, 08:35:36 AM »
But Marc, to get back to your original question---should the parkland style course play firm and fast and be browned out like a links style course can and perhaps should get.

I would say, not at all. The classic parkland look, in particular classic English landscape architecture (of which the parkland style golf course is a direct adaptation) was not intended to look like a natual browned out linksland. Perhaps almost the opposite. It was a somewhat studied pastoral adaptation of building architecture, landscape architecture and the studied placement of incredibly beautiful trees in things such as allees, but also, in random placement in some areas to mimic Nature's pastoral randomness.

That style was supposed to be a combination and meld of building and landscape architecture that was supposed to look and be pastoral, contemplative and soothing.

The good news, today, is these types of golf courses (parkland) can actually be maintained into a good degree of firm and fast without browning them out much. The farthest they should go that way, in my opinion, is to get them to a color of lighter or light green----a color, if any have missed it---on which the golf ball really can bounce and run decently.

This is a great subject, Marc, made more so by the fact that there are a number of clubs of which I'm aware that are looking to define and resolve this over-all issue of "look" (and playability) and in some cases are struggling with it.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 08:44:19 AM by TEPaul »

Tiger_Bernhardt

Re:Parkland courses playing like links.
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2006, 09:53:08 AM »
Ganton plays like a links course.

TEPaul

Re:Parkland courses playing like links.
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2006, 10:50:19 AM »
Tiger:

Would you agree to the use of the term "inland links" style golf course, even if it seems to be a complete contradiction in terms---an oxymoron, in fact? Because basically that is exactly what Ganton is and what it looks like and can play like.  ;)

Doug Ralston

Re:Parkland courses playing like links.
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2006, 09:02:56 PM »
"Also, and as usual, Rich Goodale is wrong about the Ideal Maintenance Meld and Doug Ralston is absolutely right."

Just had to save this rare statement  :-*. A rumor I was actually correct on something!

Doug

ForkaB

Re:Parkland courses playing like links.
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2006, 03:47:56 AM »
Tiger:

Would you agree to the use of the term "inland links" style golf course, even if it seems to be a complete contradiction in terms---an oxymoron, in fact? Because basically that is exactly what Ganton is and what it looks like and can play like.  ;)

Tom

Ganton is virtually a links as the land it was built on used to be near a port before the water's receded (global cooling).  Rye is very much the same.

Doug

You are probably right, but don't take Tom's endorsement to puff yoursefl up.  He gets it right about as often as a monkey sitting at a typewriter typing randomly will eventually produced an exact copy of Joyce Kilmer's "Trees."

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