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Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bobby Jones Question
« Reply #100 on: July 22, 2006, 03:14:09 AM »
It would be interesting to see how far a totally unregulated ball could travel, just for curiousity's sake.

I've mentioned before in about 1985 or so I was playing with a guy who said he had some "illegal" balls in his bag.  I tried one out on my home course's 7th hole, which is a pretty straightaway 386 yard par 4.  I drove it pin high, with little help from the wind and ground that was dry but certainly not drought stricken.  This was with a persimmon driver, steel shaft, and back then the longest I ever hit was about 50 yards short of where I hit that ball -- and even that 50 yards short was surely well wind aided (I don't remember the actual shot, I just remember that I'd hit one about a yard short of a large bunker there which was my longest drive on that hole until a few years ago)

What has been possible for ball makers to do and what the rules allowed them to do has been different for a very long time, the rules have just been evolving from requiring a certain size/weight, to limiting the distance and initial velocity to hopefully new limits on spin rates, launch angles or other characteristics to limit the wiggle room for ball makers to find ways around the intent of the rules.  So like I said, I'm curious as to what would result if Titleist decided to spend $20 million on making a rule-breaker ball that attempted to maximize distance without regard for any rules as to initial velocity, size or weight.

See, this is why I sometimes wish I had Bill Gate's fortune, if I got some crazy idea like this I could call up my "people" the next morning, write a check and in a year they'd call me back with the answer plus I'd have a ball to use in case I ever had a game with that kid in Nebraska TEPaul is so excited about.  He'd never know what hit him when I blew it past his Sunday best :)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

TEPaul

Re:Bobby Jones Question
« Reply #101 on: July 22, 2006, 07:05:58 AM »
"I am quite skeptical Jones carried the ball 320 back then, but he didn't mention any wind or elevation change that could have helped him, nor does have a way to have known whether that 340 yard was correctly measured, measured with a bit of dogleg to it, from the part of the teebox where the tees he was playing that day were placed, etc.  Maybe the hole is 340 yards measured around a slight dogleg, from the back of the teebox to a pin that was on the back of a deep green on the day it was measured, and it was only 285 yards to the spot he reached from the tees he played, certainly that would be well within the realm of possibility given all the other factors."

DougS:

That's another example that may offer a reasonable explanation of Jones believing he carried a ball 320 or whatever he said.

I certainly don't know if the hole Jones did that on had any kind of bend to it but if it did that might explain some miscalculation of yardage on his part.

I see that all the time amongst golfers and certainly plenty on here.

I don't know how the length of golf holes was measured back then but it wouldn't surprise me if they measure their lengths the same way they do today, and that's right down their center lines.

If you have a hole that bends, the total calculated yardage of the hole would be down the two sides of a triangle forming the right angle of the triangle. Essentially as it relates to a golf hole that would be the total yardage of say two shots. But if a golfer hit a drive directly at the green that would only be the yardage of the hypothnuse which obviously would be somewhat less carry distance then the total yardage of the other two sides forming the right angle of the triangle.

Two good examples of how this can skew what actual carry distance is would be Wood's driving of the green of a par 4 at Doral.

That hole was listed as 376 yards. That hole had a significant right to left bend, and the total yardage of the hole down two sides of its triangle was 376 yards. However Woods drove the ball over trees on the inside of the dogleg directly at the green down the hypotenuse and carried the ball onto the green.

How far did Wood's actually carry the ball? Well, that's not too clear because apparently no one bothered to measure the exact distance of the hypotenuse of the triangle formed by the the shape of that hole. But what was reported is that Wood's drove a hole of 376 yards and now part of that story is Woods carried his drive 376 yards. :)

Did he actually carry it 376 yards? Of course not. He may've actually carried it 50 yards less far than that. And to determine precisely how far he carried it all one would need to do is just measure the actual yardage of the hypotenuse of the triangle formed by that hole's bend down the center line.

Why hasn't anyone bothered to do that? Good question. I guess part of it is they just didn't think to or maybe they all just like "the sky is falling" stories.

It would not surprise me if this Jones' story of a 320 yard carry has some reasonable explanation like that. Frankly, no one saw Tiger Woods step in there and explain he actually carried the ball down the hypotenuse of the triangle formed by the bend of that hole.  ;)

But the real question here is does Tiger Woods even understand the different yardage calculation of the "hypotenuse" vs the other two sides of the triangle that hole formed? Did Jones? Or do either of them even care?  ;)

One thing I'm sure both do understand it that it does make an even better story for the ages.   ;)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 07:14:37 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Bobby Jones Question
« Reply #102 on: July 22, 2006, 07:26:52 AM »
DougS:

From time to time I do stay in touch with that kid from Nebraska and I never fail to ask him if he's ever run into a golfer who can get it by him with regularity. His answer still remains, "Not yet"    ;D

And there aren't any "Big Fish" stories in what I've mentioned on here about him. A number of my friends around here all saw him too and they all agree he's unprecedented. And during a couple of practice rounds he played with some other competitors who are long (about half of them made match play) after a while they all agreed that his distance (particularly the few times everything really came together) is almost silly.

It's interesting the distances Hurley drives it. Most of the time he was maybe 20-25 yards in front of the other guys but every now and again, he would say to me coming off a tee, "I really caught that one", and those drives were so excessively longer as to be almost frightening. One he flew maybe 350 yards but the real denoument was on PCC's #8 which is an uphill 400 yard hole and his ball was about a step in front of the left greenside bunker which was actually inside the front of the green. Although I'd never seen him before he sure got my attention out at Wild Horse because every now and again he was outdriving his really good opponent by up to 100 yards. So even though that course was dry and rolling on one hole I decided to actually measure his drive. The hole was a 559 yard par 5 and he had 158 yards in and his opponent was over 110 yards behind him. That got my attention as did the next hole that was about 385 into about a two club wind and he bored one out there and had about 65 yards left.

I've got to admit, although I'm very much opposed to this excessive length today, watching that young man play like that for almost a week was truly fascinating. I guess that's not much more than one of golf's ultimate and enduring seductions---eg how far can someone really hit it?  ;)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 07:43:45 AM by TEPaul »

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bobby Jones Question
« Reply #103 on: July 27, 2006, 01:14:58 AM »
To make up for my error earlier...

SF Chronicle July 31, 1925

Some excerpts from an article in the paper that was a special dispatch from Chicago.

Girl Drives Ball 310 yards in Chicago Competition

Florence Beebe, a 16 year old golfer from Edgebrook Golf Course drove a ball 310 yards in the Women's County Tournament. She had close to 2,000 golfers following her that day and after word got out, she had upwards of 10,000 patrons following her the next day.

The article states that she struck the ball and it took to the air for 280 yards and rolled another 30 to get its 310 yards. There is no mention of the course or the weather conditions(and no airport runway::)). Add to that the fact that she weighed only 112 pounds and you have a pretty amazing feat!

Another 40 yards would give you the magic number of 320! If little ole' Flo was able to hit the ball this far, could we not expect Jones to match and even exceed her numbers.

Tully


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Bobby Jones Question
« Reply #104 on: July 27, 2006, 06:16:31 AM »
Sean Tully,

It depends on whether or not you believe everything you read.

The article is preposterous.

Or, are we to believe that a 12 year old in 1925 hit the ball further Annika Sorrenstan today or Nicklaus in his prime in 60's and 70's.

In at least the first half of the century, and probably more, golfers were taught to keep the right elbow into the body to promote an inside out swing plane.

Teachers used to place hankerchiefs under the pupil's right armpit and tell them to swing at the ball without the hankerchief falling until after impact.

That practice, that theory inherently limited arc, which limits clubhead speed and distance.

Sean Tully, isn't the weather cool and damp in San Francisco ?
How might that affect ball flight ?

Please, no more excerpts from Ripley's.

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bobby Jones Question
« Reply #105 on: July 27, 2006, 11:12:04 AM »
Pat,

Of all people to not read a post thouroughly!

A couple of things, she was 16, not 12. The article was actually about a tournament in Chicago, not SF. That would make a difference any time of the year, just not this last week. We are in a heat spell and have been over 100 degrees for the past 5 days maybe it is making me delilirous(note weather reference is from Marin). It was obviously newsworthy at the time otherwise it would not have made the "news". I can't call BS on it until I have looked at more or other examples of similar stories. Yeah, it could be Ripley's Believe It Or Not but they moved that to the comics section in 1922!

Maybe some of our Chicago brethren have heard of Beebe and here prowess off the tee, part of the reason I posted.

Tully

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Bobby Jones Question
« Reply #106 on: July 27, 2006, 11:16:30 AM »
Sean Tully,

Iceberg, Goldberg, Chicago, San Francisco, 16, 12, it makes no difference.

The story is preposterous.

Maybe they meant 300 feet.

I've been hassled this morning since 5:00, so, I've skim read in between business emails.  Sorry.

ForkaB

Re:Bobby Jones Question
« Reply #107 on: July 27, 2006, 11:17:06 AM »
Pat

Do you believe that Craig Wood drove his ball 440 yards into a bunker on the 5th at the Old Course in the 30's?

Maybe "they" rolled back the ball in the 40's and just didn't tell us!

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