Thoughts on Pasatiempo

[John Foley]

Few weeks ago on a last minute trip into SJ I had the chance to play one AM. I've wanted to get there forever, but always other things came up.

Routing

The routing is very good. Understand that changes caused by the addition of the driving range changed the first which is a very hearty opener. The rest of the meandering front was a very easy walk and the tie in of the tee's to the previous greens was very good. I heard the story that the trees we're forced due to an accident many years ago? As Bob H say, what a pity!! I can understand the need as the area between 6-8 is very tight.

As Bill M commented recently that the back nine is routing is above reproach, it was truly soemthing else. The constant change (loved how some fw's have alot of movement 14 & 16, while others did not), the differnet mix of holes, the width afforded you (can't get over how wide the 12th fairway is!) on many of the holes, the change in elevation. All of this made the back scream "I am somethign special"!!

Greens

My partners commented on how difficult the putting surfaces are, well the first hole was an eye opener. I was suprised how much motion was in these holes and well they we're tied into the surroundings. I'm not sure what greens are still orinignal vs which are re-done (other than 11). I can't remeber a single green that did not cause me to walk around and take in as much detail as possible. I remember a fairly innocent middle right pin on #10 gave everyone fit trying to stop short pitches & chips anywhere near the hole.


Great Individual holes

#3 - love how it's all there in front of you, distance is not terribly long, but uphill to a narrow great. We played to a great front pin position that brought the front slope into play. I can only imagine how tough a back left pin would be.

#6 - From the tee it looks ridiculously tight. You actually have more room on the right and that bunker on the left is in the perfect position to catch anything but the strongest well struck drive (trust me , I know!!)

#10 - Loved the recaptured center bunkers, loved the tee shot forces you into thinking right is an easier miss while there is alot of room to the left. Only comment is trim the trees on the right side. I should not be in the FW and have to punch under a limb to get to the hole.

#11 - Favorite hole. All world, lets you hit driver to gain the advantage then it tells you to hit the perfect approach or else. A missed drive, or a layup across the baranca by someone w/out massive distance can be played and the hole plays just as well as it does for the low hdcp'er lookign for the challenge. I can't comment on the old green, but the new green fits in fine and plays well. Above th hole your in trouble, but not crazy trouble. missing the green will require exact execution on any ships. One of the worlds great holes.

#15 - As a big fan of short par 3's in general, this one is FUN!! Made sure to play below a middle pin and the hole played to an easy par. Miss long, left pr roght and have fun trying to get up & down. All of this at 145 yards!

#16 - Second favorite hole. Loved the humpy fairway, the need to be bold w/ the driver to get an advantage which is rewarded w/ a well struck draw. Then there is the green Don't think I've ever seen anything like that. Massive three tiers w/ plenty of movement. We played to a back pin and no one could get the ball to the top tier w/ their approach. I can imagine how tough it would be to a middle or front oin if you went long. I hope Tom's not looking ant any changes there.

#18 - Not many courses finish w/ a part three, but this one fits. I understand that the plan is to bring back the bunker fronting the green. That would give a better look than all the mown grass short today. As for the pitch of the green, I don't know how many viable pin positions exist there. I do know that a ball in the back bunker has zero chance of staying on the green.

One of the cool things is the areial from 1929 (Ithink?) in the clubhouse. Pretty cool to see the course as Mackenzie laid it out w/ very few houses.

Any fans of this site needs to go do some field work down in Santa Cruz!

[Chris Perry]

I wish the pin was back on #16 when I played there.  I totally overclubbed on a middle pin, which is a shame because it was the best drive I hit all day and did nothing with it.

[Tom Huckaby]

John - welcome to the brotherhood!  Pasa is one hell of a place, our constant dissection of it nothwithstanding.

Re 16, middle pin is easiest to access from fairway, but god help you if you fail to find it.  Methinks Chris found out the hard way....

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

John - welcome to the brotherhood!  Pasa is one hell of a place, our constant dissection of it nothwithstanding.

Re 16, middle pin is easiest to access from fairway, but god help you if you fail to find it.  Methinks Chris found out the hard way....

TH

My career 9-iron stopped (or so I thought) right next to the hole cut on the middle pin and then spun down the tier and I proceeded to 4-putt. I loved the hole.

[Tom Huckaby]

Well welcome to the brotherhood there also, Glenn.  I believe I have 4 putted from down below at least a few times.  What's even WORSE though is if you somehow end up on the top tier... imagine putting DOWN to that middle tier....

 

[Mike Hoak]

I'm headed there next Tuesday for the first time.  I'm really looking forward to it after reading everyone's comments in several threads this week.  I played a round over the weekend at Andrews Air Force Base which features some of the flattest and slowest greens I've ever played.  I'm thinking that was rather poor preparation for Pasa.

[Chris Perry]

Well welcome to the brotherhood there also, Glenn.  I believe I have 4 putted from down below at least a few times.  What's even WORSE though is if you somehow end up on the top tier... imagine putting DOWN to that middle tier....

 

That was my dilemma. I hit it touch too hard and it was near dying as it hit the crest of the hill, it didn't roll off the false front though, fortunately.

[Jordan Wall]

Well welcome to the brotherhood there also, Glenn.  I believe I have 4 putted from down below at least a few times.  What's even WORSE though is if you somehow end up on the top tier... imagine putting DOWN to that middle tier....

 

That was my dilemma. I hit it touch too hard and it was near dying as it hit the crest of the hill, it didn't roll off the false front though, fortunately.

Chip it?
Land it by the hole with spin?
Would that (could that) work?
Seattle GC has a green EXACTLY the same way.
It has gotten too severe for new green speens and any putt from top tier to bottom is off the green unless you are a genius.
I know I chip it!

[Chris Perry]

I don't think the risk of shanking, thinning or chunking it would be worth it, not to mention what the super would do if he caught you doing that on the green. And I doubt it would hold any better than dying it down the slope anyways.

I had 15 feet left for par after the first putt. Almost made it too.

[Tom Huckaby]

The State is still going to lose the case - which is that the hole is "blah" - the State's initial statement.  "Blah" to me means boring, nothing going on, nothing to it - on top of being easy.

I can live with you calling this an easy golf hole, as I've said.  It is the easiest on the back nine.  That being said, for all except the scratch, it remains plenty difficult.

But if the state wants to call this a "blah" hole, the State remains painfully wrong.

I stand ready to try the case.  I've got a lot of huge trees and a hazard and a downhill temptation to the ego tee shot with blockage possibility on both sides and semi-death fronting the green with difficult falloffs with subtle breaks on the putting surface that maddeningly stand out tremendously in a course full of bold contours as my evidence.

But BTW, in terms of how easy the golf hole is, I will say this:
12 fairway is wide, yes.  But not effectively so.  John in his one playing likely fell into the trap you have, not noticing that anything in the left half of the fairway is blocked by trees unless you get WAY down there... which of course is reason to hit more club that would otherwise be obvious.

[Tom Huckaby]

did you blow a tournament there or something as a kid?

I can't see how anyone could think that hole is less than impressive.  The green isn't very tricky.  Neither shot is either hard or delicate.  

Now you're talking - your double negative says it all.  It is indeed an impressive golf hole.  And aren't you glad I quoted this before you had a chance to edit?  

In any case my friend, I don't base things on my own success or lack thereof - care to discuss 17 again, which is the one hole on the course that might merit the "blah" distinction, a simple one-slope green that SOME golfers always cite as the most difficult they played, simply because they once botched it horribly??

 

It remains a very interesting golf hole.  As I say, it can be played conservatively and one can make a lot of pars.  But I'd say even for the scratch more 5s than 3s are made on the golf hole.  He makes a LOT of 4s, for sure.

For the non-scratch it remains far from easy.  All the things you now seem to recognize - the blockage of the trees for example - contrive to make it far more difficult than it looks, for the non-scratch particularly, but for the scratch also.  But of course you also conveniently leave out that one can also get blocked quite easily by going too far RIGHT....

And in any case cupcakedness remains not the real point.  You called it "blah" and there is no way in hell it's that.  "Less than impressive" would depend on what one relates it to.  12 is less obviously impressive than 10, 11, 16, that's for sure.  But transport it to Santa Teresa and it immediately becomes the most inspring, interesting, beautiful hole on the golf course.  It also becomes the 2nd or 3rd most difficult hole.

So I suppose this is a matter of relativity.  If I play all my golf on Medinah, Chicago GC and NGLA, this is a less than impressive, relatively blah golf hole.

But few golfers are that priviledged.

Come on out and I'll show you blah golf holes.  If this is one, then once again, I am Oprah.

TH

[John Foley]

Guys,

I did not set up Dave on this. I didn't even know you guys we're talking about this on the other thread untill a little while ago.

That being said, I really think that most people walk over to the 12th tee relieved to be over #11 . 11 realy is a mentatlly taxing hole.

Yes I flogged a driver hit SW lipped out the putt and walked to the 13th ready to attack it.

I also think the hole would be much better if the baranca in front of the green was left un-maintained.

[Tom Huckaby]

JF - of course you had zero to do with shivas - that's understood.

And of course compared to the rigors of 11, 12 is a relatively easy golf hole.

As for the area in the barranca in front of the green, I'd agree the hole would be better if it were left to go to hazard.  But when I was there last October - and it's been this way to various degrees my entire 25 years of playing this course - it was pretty serious rough.  Is it made into fairway now?  That would be sad...

In any case, he called the hole "blah."  Would you call it such?

That's the question.

In any case, here's the description of the hole by the head pro, from the club's website.  Of course his bias will be to promote the golf hole, but still, every word he says is 100% true from my experience.  This is a "blah" golf hole?


It is easy to become swept up in the panoramic view of the bay driving off the highly elevated tee, but maintain concentration. Play the drive down the right side of the wide fairway and let the ball run down the slope. Land too far left and risk getting blocked on the second shot. Closer to the green, the fairway narrows to a skimpy tunnel of trees dotted with depressions that toy with errant shots. The approach shot must be played directly onto the green, as trouble awaits in front in the forms of a shallow valley and fronting bunkers. The green is relatively flat but sneaky tough.
— Ken Woods, Head Pro


TH

[John Foley]

Tom - no it's still rough, but I'd take that as rouh any day vs a native area.

No it's not a blah hole, but I do agree it's far and away the easiest on the back. If you toughened it, narrowed the fw, bring the baranca (as native area) into play put somethign on the right side to make you think, would it be a better hole?

Possibly, but IMHO, i wouldn't change anything.

[Tom Huckaby]

John:

You had me at "No, it's not a blah hole."

 

As for suggested improvements to toughen it, I don't think any of that means net improvement.  I go with Bill McBride on this, who noted it's nice to have a relative breather after the brutality of 10 and 11.  That being said, they do need to keep the front barranca area as a bad place to leave a golf ball at the very least, lest the interest in the approach become far too little.

BTW, not that I think it NEEDS any changing either - but my zany idea, posted here several times before - is to remove the trees completely from the barranca between 11 and 12.  That was how it was originally.  To me that gives a wild left fairway option on 11, but really ratches up the options on 12... Think about it....

TH

[Chris Perry]

I'd think removing those trees from the barranca, though an interesting concept, would just bring up a bunch of problems, most notibly hitting into the groups ahead of you walking down 12, and vice-versa hitting into the groups behind you trying to find a better angle into the 12th green.

This is most likely why the trees were grown in there in the first place.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
   I'll side with Shivas on this one. #12 is a blah hole, that is only partially saved by a moderately interesting green. If the hole played longer then the hole would prove more interesting, but I'm generally hitting 8-iron to PW in, and at that distance I'm not worrying about missing my shot enough to get in trouble. The redeeming feature of the hole, as stated, is that it provides a breather after #10 & 11.
   While I'm at it #17 falls into the same blah category, with the exception of its seemingly gravity-defying green.
    In spite of that, Pasa remains one of my favorites, and I would never hesitate to send someone there for a round.

[Tom Huckaby]

I'd think removing those trees from the barranca, though an interesting concept, would just bring up a bunch of problems, most notibly hitting into the groups ahead of you walking down 12, and vice-versa hitting into the groups behind you trying to find a better angle into the 12th green.

This is most likely why the trees were grown in there in the first place.

Chris - obviously the liability involved, especially in today's overly litigious American society, prevents my idea from ever being implemented.  So it's just fun speculation.

But imagine if there were no trees.  Heck, on both 11 and 12 tee, all would be in plain sight... so the safety answer would be to just wait until the chosen fairway is clear... and I know, this has the potential to slow things up... but work with me, I just am imagining more fun golf holes.

Sans trees, 11 doesn't change all that much - taking the left fairway (current 12) won't be a viable option for many.  BUT... Bobby Jones did it... so it's always there as a thought.  The angle in for the 2nd is a LOT better coming up from that side.

The real action happens re 12, however.  Taking it into the left (current 11) gives a better angle to a front pin... but more importanly, going STRAIGHT at the green becomes a very viable option.  Oh, it will take a mighty whack - but man driving the green then really gets into the heads of the big hitters.

Choices abound... both holes improve....

But alas, dare to dream.  The course is far too crowded and our society far to eager to sue.

 

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