What's on this years Ballot for best new courses Golf Digest

[cary lichtenstein]

What are the major contenders for Best New in each category on this years ballot for Golf Digest?

[John Kirk]

Courses need to be open fairly early in the season to be eligible.  Ballyneal is eligible.  I doubt Dismal River or Pronghorn - Fazio are eligible.  Sebonack is not on the list.  I don't know about Bayonne.  And other than that, I don't know the other candidates.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Bayonne is not on the list.  I don't have the list in front of me so I can't comment as I would like. (I am in Michigan and not playing) From my looking at the list I didn't see any that really jumped out at me.  I did notice some "remodel" work that should be interesting.  I think the remodel category is a good one and will provide some of the best scores in this years ballot.

[Alan Carter]

The big names for this year would likely be

Bandon Trails
Ballyneal
Wynn
Tumble Creek
Redstone - Tournament

As mentioned, there are some big names up in the renovation category

Tamarisk
Trump National LA
Stanwich
Kaanapali - South
Oak Hill - West
Dallas Athletic
Kingswill - River

[John Kirk]

Stone Eagle will be on the Best New Private list.  I'm biased but I think it will be quite competitive.  A few flaws, but very beautiful and dramatic, fun to play too.

[Matt_Ward]

John Kirk:

What are the "flaws" you ascribe to Stone Eagle.

Please be very direct as you can.

Thanks ...

[John Kirk]

Hi, Matt.  I think we've been through this in detail.

1.  Holes 9 and 11 are very similar in appearance and strategy, steeply downhill, medium length par 4s that turn slightly left.  The green on both holes slopes away and to the left.  I like 9 quite a bit.  It's a little too easy to hit your drive out of play on 11.  Both 9 and 11 are quite attractive from the tee box.  Hole number 16 is also a short, downhill par 4 that turns slightly left.

2.  There are a few too many downhill, drop shot par 3s.  I like 3 and 12 just fine.  7 is OK, just too long a journey to get to the tee.  7 is probably a better hole from the 6th fairway, but the view from the actual tee box is worthwhile.  There is some value is trying to judge how much club to use, only a 5-6 iron for me from 215 yards.  On 7, I don't like the fact that pin high 15 yards right of the green is in the rocks (but findable).

19 is also a little downhill par 3, but the green is really tricky.  A good tiebreaker.

As previously discussed, the other holes are wonderful.  I enjoy playing the course very much.  Despite the lukewarm response of some players, I believe it has a chance to be considered a modern classic in due time.

[Evan_Green]

According to Kaanapali's website Robin Nelson did the work on the South course. Has anyone played it? I'm curious as to how much it has improved and what exactly was done.

Also according to the website the North course is currently being renovated.

[Matt_Ward]

John K:

If push came to shoove and you had to decide where to play between Stone Eagle and Ballyneal which one would you choose?

Please don't provide the lawyerly like answer that both are superb. I don't that they are but sometimes one must decide.

Thanks ...

[John Kirk]

You're going to have to settle for a non-committal answer.

Ballyneal's design is really solid, devoid of the types of mentioned flaws that Stone Eagle possesses.  Ballyneal has great variety, a very logical walk, and a great finishing stretch.  You'll get to see that in a few weeks.

Ballyneal's turf is still young.  The course is still playing slower than ideal, and so it's hard to tell how fun it's going to be.  Stone Eagle's grass was playing approximately as intended last winter.

I thought Stone Eagle was harder than Ballyneal, but that is largely a function of my strengths and weaknesses as a player.  Stone Eagle requires more precise driving.  Driving the ball at Stone Eagle is a gas.

I don't have to say which one I like better.  I like Ballyneal better in the summer, because it's 147 degrees in Palm Springs today.  Sorry.

[Adam Clayman]

JK, You'll be happy to hear hat the greens at BN are significantly faster than they were a month ago. The greens will be down to .200 this week.

Juxtapose that to Corey's course, which held the Western Nebraska Seniors today, at .009. He really is spoiling anyone who pays their $39 green fee W/cart.

[Joe Hancock]

JK, You'll be happy to hear hat the greens at BN are significantly faster than they were a month ago. The greens will be down to .200 this week.

Juxtapose that to Corey's course, which held the Western Nebraska Seniors today, at .009. He really is spoiling anyone who pays their $39 green fee W/cart.

Adam,

Would it be fair to interpret your comments such that .009" is a very good thing? I mean, if it spoils the customers who pay $39, then I assume you mean shorter is better.

Curious.

Joe

[Bill Gayne]

Is the Frederica course at Sea Island on this years list?

The new Donald Steel course in Primland Virginia.

Will Tom Paul and Wayne Morrison win best renovation for the work at The Homestead?  

[Adam Clayman]

Joe, It isn't so much the speed, as it is how purely they roll. My point was, that Corey is giving the good people of Ogallala world class greens. The low mowing height works well on his greens, that have relatively little undulation, compared to Ballyneal.

Also, it is pretty obvious that the average Joe, loves speedy juicy greens. Corey is now a small business operator and knows what his customers want. He even said guys were coming in and telling him how they had 20' remaining after a 20' foot putt. I ask him if they were complaining and he said no. They were just awestruck by the speed. The ball creep is fun to figure. Not better, just different.

[Joe Hancock]

Joe, It isn't so much the speed, as it is how purely they roll. My point was, that Corey is giving the good people of Ogallala world class greens. The low mowing height works well on his greens, that have relatively little undulation, compared to Ballyneal.

Also, it is pretty obvious that the average Joe, loves speedy juicy greens. Corey is now a small business operator and knows what his customers want. He even said guys were coming in and telling him how they had 20' remaining after a 20' foot putt. I ask him if they were complaining and he said no. They were just awestruck by the speed. The ball creep is fun to figure. Not better, just different.

Adam,

I'm a bit surprised to hear you give a stamp of approval on a course operator juicing up and shaving greens just to appease the customer. That is the antithesis of what you typically say about operators who do anything away from dry, fast and cheap.

This is probably better suited for another thread. My apologies to the original thread author.

Joe

[Adam Clayman]

Joe, Pigeonholing me is a very dangerous thing to do.

West Wind is a tree lined parkland style course built on flat farmland. It is the anti-thesis of the sophisticated designs we like to talk about and has it's place in the market.

And screw the topic of this thread. Who the frick cares about the ballots for best new? Cary's ability to rave is unmatched.

[John Kirk]

Adam,

.009" can't be right.  How about .09" ?

Speaking of raving, it's not my position to rave about Ballyneal and Stone Eagle.  I like them both; I want other people to decide which one is better.

[Adam Clayman]

of course u are correct, too many zeros.
9/10

[Joel_Stewart]

Its always the most disappointing time/issue for me because normally the course is one I have not heard of or played.  This year its wide open what could win, no slam dunks like Pacific Dunes or Sand Hills.  

Last year was a perfect example with Altonian (not sure of the spelling) just outside of Little Rock, AR won and it was never discussed here and has never been discussed since.

There is always a Fazio or two or three that are going to contend.  I understand a new one in either Florida or Texas is very strong.

Lastly, many of the courses discussed here loose out to more modern designs which many of the GD panelists prefer.  Two years ago Black Rock in Idaho beating Friars Head was mind blowing, at least to me.  After attending the panelist summitt last year I understood much better the reason why a modern Engh or Fazio course will almost always beat a Doak or C&C course.

[Gene Greco]

After attending the panelist summitt last year I understood much better the reason why a modern Engh or Fazio course will almost always beat a Doak or C&C course.

What could the reason(s) be for this state of affairs, one of "almost always?"

[Jim Nugent]

Courses need to be open fairly early in the season to be eligible.  

Do you know the cutoff date?  If a course misses that date, is it eligible for the next year?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

How about the 3 new courses in Sarasota?

The Concession by Nicklaus

The Ritz Members Club by Fazio

The Founders Club by RTJ2

[Rob_Waldron]

Steve

I had a chance to play The Concession earlier this year and must admit that the course is spectacular! I would think it should be a contender!

[Mitch Hantman]

 Concession is a winner.  It could be Nicklaus' best completely solo effort to date.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I thought Jack worked with Tony Jacklin on The Concession (hence the name).

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