Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Read what I wrote. I saluted the vision and the potential of what Lederach can provide.

I stand behind what I said concerning the dismal nature of Pennsy public golf prior to Morgan Hill and Lederach. Far from the qualities you see with the private side of the ledger.

Kyle -- allow me to enlighten you on branding and pricing. The Casper folks are simply using the pricing formula you mentioned to "hook" those who may know little about the course. Do not assume that all folks have the kind of info at their disposal as what you see here on GCA.

Check out the success of other Casper management properties and you will see what I say is true.

Lederach has clearly moved the picture of public golf in a profound way -- away from the dreary predictable layouts that far too often dot the Pennsy public golf landscape.

P.S. If you don't believe there is a connection between what Rustic Canyon did for SoCal and what Lederach can do for the greater Philadelphia area in public golf then I believe it is you who are mistaken.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

I think Joe Logan's review may have had some adverse impact at Lederach:

www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/columnists/joe_logan/14460839.htm


I certainly don't mind the senior weekday rate. It's comparable to Makefield Highlands and a little more than Jeffersonville. I'm not a fan of Pinecrest.

Steve

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle -- allow me to enlighten you on branding and pricing. The Casper folks are simply using the pricing formula you mentioned to "hook" those who may know little about the course. Do not assume that all folks have the kind of info at their disposal as what you see here on GCA.

Matt:

I understand branding and pricing just fine, and if you'd reread my post, you'll note I said that once the new glow wears off, that scheme will have to change.

I'm not sure what info I am privy to here on GCA that the market here in the Philadelphia/Pennsylvania is not privy to as I am speaking as a member of that market, and not as a member of GCA (as you, ironically, are).

I understand that it is your job to have a pulse on the golf market, especially in New Jersey. However, and correct me if I am wrong, your focus tends to the architecturally significant and not the market significant.

Absent architecture, how does one compare the Mainlands/Horsham Valleys/Five Ponds of the world against Lederach?

Typically price, size of the bar, and proximity to the course for the group.

In that regard, how does Lederach stack up?

How many of the golfers in the market here want to be accosted by a bag boy, have their bag taken care of from their car and be given a five minute speech about the course before teeing off? All of those factors add up to the biggest driver of preference in our area - price. And in this regard, the architecturally insignificant courses far outstrip Lederach.

Also, please enlighten me with an economic comparison between the markets in SoCal and Eastern PA in regard to golf courses. I've never been to SoCal, but I'd imagine the climate is much different than here in PA.

This Casper business scares me a lot, and it scares me to think that this business model will drive the market in order to "stay competitive."

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Let me clear something up now -- the average Joe and Jane who play golf do not have one iota -- that's right IOTA -- of what you see discussed here on GCA. To think otherwise means a very serious disconnect on reality on your part.

My focus is not driven towards the architectural side alone. An error on your part. From the market side I don't know how much you are aware of successful the Casper Management company has been with other properties. Go to their Website and you will find they have done quite well -- even in a marketplace where total number of rounds are down for the last several years and a fair number of facilities have gone on the chopping block.

The three aforementioned courses you mentioned are simply layouts to enjoy golf from a strictly recreational point of view. I would not venture back to any of three for all the tea in China.

Lederach is in the process in developing their brand name. They are trying to entice core golfers and those who are seasonal in nature. Clearly, the pricing model they are following is meant to drive people away from certain courses to where they are located.

Your problem Kyle is that it is you are BRAINWASHED with all the BS public courses that exist in the greater Philadelphia area. Unfortunately, golfers do want to be paid attention to beyond the mere fact that green fees may be lower at the other locations.

When you say accosted by a bag boy -- do yourself a favor and check out the Casper customer service connection that's part of the Lederach Website. The folks at Casper do take seriously the concerns raised by customers.

I was not accosted when I arrived there. The folks were warm, most polite and receptive to any of the needs I had that day. Your situation may have been an aberation. I can only speak to how I was treated. If people believe good hospitality is overrated then by all means knock yourselfs out with that cow pasture called Cobbs Creek and all the rest because all the fantasy land thinking of how they might come back is in serious deep denial land.

The issue othe SoCal tie in has nothing to do with weather (appreciate the smart ass reply) but with architectural quality. SoCal is replete with junk food design public layouts that have the audacity to charge top dollar and leave you with the same feeling once the fast food meal is over. Rustic Canyon and Barona Creek have made major strides in enlightening customers and future developments that quality can be achieved. Check the tee sheet at both of these wonderful places and you will find many happy faces.

The Philadelphia public golf market (on the Pennsy side of the Delaware I might add), with extremely few exceptions as Steve and I have mentioned already, is a wasteland for quality public course design. Moran's work at Lederach has the potential -- did you hear that Kyle loud and clear -- THE POTENTIAL -- to be a major statement against that tide of low level junk food design that is there now.

For years places not so far away as the Poconos are starting to wake-up for their self-imposed golf coma to realize what is needed in order to jump start their re-emergence as a golf haven worthy of attention.

What should scare you is the mentality that preceded such places as Morgan Hill and Lederach and simply cranked out the same dog food layouts time after time after time. The Casper group is not to be feared for precisely the reasons they hired Moran in the first place. He has shown a clear talent for quality designs that clearly fall way outside the model of mediocrity.

One last thing -- the Jersey marketplace went through a similar thing in the very 80's when the Crystal Springs, Blue Heron Pines and Eric Bergstol efforts started to move aggressively ahead. I believe that sort of competition has been a real plus to the variety of courses that operate in the Garden State now. It's possible such a spillover of success will germinate now in the greater Philadelphia public golf course scene and spread further away from that core area.

We shall see.

 

[Kyle Harris]

Absent architecture, how does one compare the Mainlands/Horsham Valleys/Five Ponds of the world against Lederach?

Matt: Please read that quote from my other post a few times, and note the first qualifier. I know that the average golfer does not give an iota about what is discussed here on GCA, hence THAT question.

I am aware of Casper's success, but how much of that success has been with a municipal golf course (Lederach is owned by Lower Salford Twp. and not Casper) in the Phildelphia golf market in a county that is LUSH with golf options for the average golfer. Are you saying they are applying a model that has had success in other areas to one that is unique?

Just in case you forgot, here's the quote again:

Absent architecture, how does one compare the Mainlands/Horsham Valleys/Five Ponds of the world against Lederach?

How have I been brainwashed? I know there are plenty of BS public golf courses in the greater Philadelphia area. But the BS is strictly from a architectural standpoint.

I find bagboys to be BS at a municipal course, and do not like that my green fees are that much higher to pay for the labor, which frankly I don't need or want.

I found the service at Lederach to be quite good as well, but the mere presence of the bag boys was how I was accosted. I am perfectly capable and willing to carry my bag from the car to the cart (which I do not want) and I am not willing to cover the cost of that labor. Unfortunately, I will not return to Lederach until a lower cost, walking alternative is offered to me as the customer (and market) or I am invited as part of a group.

I find it deeply ironic that you bring up the majority of the market as not caring an iota about what is discussed here on GCA, yet you place the values of GCA on that market.

Hate to break it to you, but the crap courses architecturally around the Philadelphia area are quality to 98% of the market - just try to get a tee time some weekend.

One more time, just in case:

Absent architecture, how does one compare the Mainlands/Horsham Valleys/Five Ponds of the world against Lederach?

[Dan Herrmann]

Here's the telling quote from Joe Logan's review:
But as I said, those were initial impressions, gleaned from a round I played a week ago with a couple of 50-something local guys I met on the first tee.

"Look at this," grumbled one of them as we stood on one tee, studying the hole. "If I hit a perfect tee shot down the middle, it's going to be in a bunker."



-----------------------------

I know Eric Peveto had the same issue in selling the concept of Gil's French Creek to the community.  The overriding feeling is why would I play a course where a bunker is right where you would want to hit your tee shot.

Sure - the folks on GCA and similar-minded folks get "it".  Bu how many of us make up to golfing public?  5-10%?  Maybe not even that.

That's why courses like **** (fill in your own choice of a boring, uninspired course) are fairly successful, not just here in SE Pennsylvania, but all over the country.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

I think the township hired KBM to do the course and the course  was finished before Casper Management was hired to manage the course.

In any event, from the comments that I've heard from my guests, center line bunkers, roller coaster greens and blind shots are not high on the lists of favorites of the average public golfer. They tend to view those design features as "unfair."

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

I could frankly give a rats ass what the average Joe thinks is quality golf. This is the same crowd that thinks a White Castle hamburger is top shelf cuisine. Pennsy Pete who plays muni's and other low level junkfood design golf courses is ignorant to the max on what makes for sound golf design. If his mind is that closed then by all means let him occupy his time accordingly.

Thanks for the correction / re: Casper Management and who hired KBM. Nonetheless, it's a salute to the Township in bringing on board someone with a keen eye for detail and what golf design is now MISSING.

The issue I have is that too many aspiring public course developers have gone after the tail portion of the dog -- they need to realize that with all the inane clutter that has the balls to call itself quality golf design there is a sizeable market that will put their $$ up to play quality designs. Check out the successful Crystal Springs Resort complex in North Jersey as a clear example of understanding the market and still produce first rate public golf options. Ditto the efforts of Eric Bergstol to name another savvy business / golf expert.

In Dan's example (re: Joe Logan's column) I am also tired of what "Walter Brennan / Buddy Ebsen" type golfers think. Frankly, a good portion of this set would brown bag their food to the course if permitted and are only searching for bargain basement rates -- if places think they can attract this crowd the are heading to a major deep abyss because if course A can be a dime lower than course B guess takea good guess where they're headed. They are a waste to spend any effort to attract -- it is a zero sum game to the max. That doesn't mean facilities should gouge on the rest.

The only problem with Dan's example is that Philadelphia and the folks who love golf there have CLEAR EXAMPLES on what quality design is about. They are private no doubt but there is a core crowd that has played these places -- albeit as guests in most instances. The Pennsy public golf market needs EXPOSURE to the type of golf you see with Lederach. And, just as important, the folks handling the management of the facility need to brand the course as being not only unique but the real identity of what top shelf golf is all about.

No doubt that's a tall order but what's the alternative. Waiting for that cow pasture called Cobb's Creek to come back from the dead. You'll sooner see Elvis than that happening.

Kyle:

Check out the Casper Website -- they handle all types of courses -- including taxpayer owned ones and have done quite well. McCullough's Emerald Links in the AC area is one example that's near to the southeast Pennsy area.

The dog food that parades itself as public golf is what can make Lederach be that much more noticeable BECAUSE OF ITS DESIGN. If people are accustomed to Motel 6 type golf courses by all means knock yourself out and play that junk. The market can handle new facilities that have a unique differentiation in what they provide. That's the opening for Lederach IMHO.

If people want to remain clueless then play the ones you mentioned.

The Casper folks do treat customer service beyond the oxymoron level seen with so many others. Your experience is atypical from my many experiences.

Word to the wise -- simply decline the assist regarding the bag service -- it's no different than staff people cleaning clubs after the round concludes. You don't have to carry on like a cheapskate or boor regarding what is being attempted. The face of taxpayer owned courses is simply trying to provide more of an effort to connect with their customers. If you don't want it there's a better way to do it than carrying on in a dizzy over much ado about nothing.

Kyle, if you are so hard up as not to have the kid take your bag so be it. If parting with one dollar as a tip will break your bank that's your prerogative. Simply let management know of your preferences and I'm sure they will try to accomodate you. From my understanding you can walk Lederach if you prefer.

In regards to the courses you highlighted -- I understand the point you make -- however -- the architecture is what drives me and core players to make a trek to places like Lederach -- over 110 miles from where I live in NJ. There is a marketplace for people in that category. Look at the Jersey example I previously cited in the late 80's when the public market place exploded with clear changes from what was here previously in the Garden State. The same road can happen in the greater Philadelphia area.

I place the values of GCA because frankly I grew up on a dog track for a golf course called Passaic County in Wayne, NJ. I became aware of what was out there in North Jersey and beyond through sheer exposure. If I can be enlightened I am equally confident others can do likewise.

You also confuse the fact that numbers crammed on a course indicates something. Check out the car lines going into McDonald's. I concede the companies are making money but the opportunity to expand their capacity for additional dollars has seen McDonald's now move into food categories to capture people who are more health conscious. The same motivation can happen with developers who want to provide a product differentiation than simply more of the "me too" clutter.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

Even for the architectural cognescenti Lederach has a problem, in my opinion.

Within a 45 minute drive I have two municipal courses that are a Doak 6 in my book: Lederach and Jeffersonville.

Jeffersonville is a whoping $18.00 to play after 3 on a weekend. Lederach is $42.00 with a mandatory cart (though walking is permitted, I am still paying for a cart).

Two different designs and golf courses, but while factoring in price, I'd probably play Lederach 2 times out of 10 between the 2.

I tip and use the bagboys since they are there to make a buck (remember I spent two years as a caddiemaster doing the same thing, just on the private end).

My problem comes with the fact that both Lederach and Jeffersonville are playing in the same market, municipal golf.

At Lederach, I'd venture that I am paying more for overhead than I am the green fee. With bagboys' salaries and the MANDATORY cart fee. Yes, the option to walk still exists, but I am paying the ~$15.00 rental fee for the cart regardless of if I use it or not. So, I am incurring a cost for two things I may not necessarily want or need regardless of the situation.

That's bull gravy, especially for a municipal course.

I'll spare the private sector/public sector debate, though.

Numbers crammed on a course do indicate something, that people want to play there.

[Mike_Sweeney]

My problem comes with the fact that both Lederach and Jeffersonville are playing in the same market, municipal golf.

Kyle,

I don't know Jeffersonville, but Lederach reminded me of The Captains on Cape Cod. It is a public course owned by the town, set up to make money, not really to provide recreation for its citizens at a reasonable price aka your typical muni.

As we looked at a similar property in nearby Bally, PA with Kelly, my guess is the housing developer did not want to own the course as it is very difficult to make money on golf at the prices you are quoting. However the developer wanted the golf option for his buyers, so he made a deal with the township somehow.

Since the township does not tax itself, it can probably make money so everybody, including the non-golfing taxpayers of Lederach, are happy. This is all speculation, but I doubt if I am too far off.

PS. 45 minute drives cost alot more these days.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

I think you're probably spot on, actually. Hence me wanting to avoid the public sector/private sector debate, but it's probably more central to this issue than anything. Jeffersonville is East Norriton Twp's course (next to Norristown) and was designed by Donald Ross/JB McGovern in 1934, with a recent restoration/renovation by Ron Prichard.

You should check it out if you haven't already - it's worth it.

Keep in mind that I am talking about the weekend twilight rate. How much money is made by a golf course at that time anyway?

I understand the rates being as high as they are for peak time, heck, the demand is definitely there, and they are comparable for the market. It's at twilight where things get screwy in my mind and I think the business model they are applying is just silly.

I've known golf courses to price themselves out of the market at twilight to keep afternoon play down for a variety of reasons. Why would that be the case at Ledearch though?

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

You completely missed my point on how the Jersey golf market handled its growth phase of the late 80's and how this effort changed the tide from the mediocre public layouts that existed throughout the state to one today where the top tier places are indeed first rate efforts in so many ways. This change came from both the CCFAD and taxpayer owned courses model.

The same situation the Garden State experienced can spillover to what the greater eastern Pennsy area is facing now -- Morgan Hill and Lederach can provide the
momentum -- the POTENTIAL is there.

When you get a fix on what I am speaking about I believe you will then begin to understand where I am coming from.

[Cliff Hamm]

I don't know Jeffersonville, but Lederach reminded me of The Captains on Cape Cod. It is a public course owned by the town, set up to make money, not really to provide recreation for its citizens at a reasonable price aka your typical muni.

Mike, I haven't played Lederach and only know from what I have read here.  While Captain's might not be a typical muni as its greens fees are about $55 in the summer, it does aim to provide recreation for the citizens of Brewster.  Membership is about $750 for residents, which is one of the great bargains in golf.  Residents can only play 9 holes before 8 or so  and after 1 or so in the afternoon in the summer unless tee times are available.  There is plenty of golf to be had though, especially spring and fall.  Also there are no bag boys

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

You completely missed my point on how the Jersey golf market handled its growth phase of the late 80's and how this effort changed the tide from the mediocre public layouts that existed throughout the state to one today where the top tier places are indeed first rate efforts in so many ways. This change came from both the CCFAD and taxpayer owned courses model.

The same situation the Garden State experienced can spillover to what the greater eastern Pennsy area is facing now -- Morgan Hill and Lederach can provide the
momentum -- the POTENTIAL is there.

When you get a fix on what I am speaking about I believe you will then begin to understand where I am coming from.

Matt,

I know exactly where you're coming from and I agree. Couple that with the resurgence of the Philadelphia area economy over the next 50 years or so and we may very well have a second Philadelphia School of Golf Architecture with Kelly Moran as its dean.

The potential is certainly there, I agree, and would love to see it happen. In fact, I think it's more than potential, I think it's happening.

Even with Bella Vista, Island Green and Makefield Highlands (three relatively benign, but servicible golf courses that have opened in the past 5 years in the area) the bar has been raised - if from poorly considered and designed pasture golf to something at least moderately playable.

That being said, these courses still priced themselves into the market that was already there and have enjoyed much success.

If the market doesn't care about architecture (since you and I both would place a higher value on Lederach than the alternatives) why couldn't Lederach?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt, et al

I think the public market doesn't care about architecture but they do care about difficulty and perceived "fairness." The recently revised slope ratings at Lederach are 131 from 6000y and 134 from 6600y. Compare those numbers with Jeffersonville, for example, at 124 from 6150y and 128 from 6440y and then factor in centerline bunkers, roller coaster greens and blind shots(or as a friend said, "Holes where you can't see your ball land") and you have a reason why many may choose not to return after giving the course a play.

Lederach is trying to market itself based on a "Rewards Card" concept giving email or advertised notices of monthly specials. For example, in June the Friday primetime rate was reduced to $60(including range balls) from $75 and weekday play included a free hot dog and drink. I haven't seen any marketing geared to the uniqueness of its golf design. The website contains some favorable reviews from local papers but, for obvious reasons, does not contain Joe Logan's mixed review.

Steve

[Dan Herrmann]

Steve - what are the course ratings?  Slope alone doesn't mean much.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Dan

Slope means something for bogey golfers.

Here are the numbers:

Jeffersonville:
69.4/124@6150y
70.9/128@6440y

Lederach:
69.8/131@6000y
71.8/134@6600y

Without factoring in cost, I'd play Lederach 6 times and Jeffersonville 4 times.

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

This idea that difficulty alone turns people off is silly. How do I know? Check out the rush of golfers who want to play Bethpage Black each and every day. The place is loaded with people who want to see what it takes to handle such a layout.

Lederach is far from the Black but my point is a simple one -- people want to play golf that's more than just the ordinary. It doesn't have to be back breaking like the Black but it needs to be more than just your run-of-the-mill 115 slope 69.0 rated rat hole that is in fair to good shape and offers 64-ounce beer cups at the turn.

The model in New Jersey supports what I said previously. Steve -- the level of public golf prior to the late 80's in the Garden State was nearly as bankrupt in terms of quality public courses as what you see in the far eastern section of Pennsy. Once the bar started to rise the overall quality started to go quickly in that direction. Roger Hansen, Gene Mulvihill and Eric Bergstol were and continue to be prime players in elevating the Jersey public golf market.

Steve -- let me point out that the marketing of Lederach is borrowing the same point of emphasis carried forward by a county-owned layout in Jersey called Heron Glen -- the first taxpayer-owned layout in Hunterdon County. The design by Dan Schlegel is well done and worth a look for any close by Pennsy players. They do extensive e-mail blasts to core golfer types who they want for return business. It's been quite successful and the Casper people are doing what Kemper Sports Management has done there.

So long as the prices are relatively close by the idea that everyone runs to the lowest available doesn't fly. And, even if it did, chasing such golfers is a waste of time. Their loyalty is next to nothing. They will pinch pennies but still drive into the lot with their new Lexus.

[Kyle Harris]

Uhhh Matt, how many people played Bethpage Black before it was awarded the US Open?

From what I've read and heard: not many. Heck, halfthe people in the overnight lot are still there to get a time on the Red and Blue instead of the Black. Furthermore, how many return after one or two go 'rounds?

Maybe the reason they could afford the Lexus was because they weren't blowing money on golf.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

The Black was LOADED even prior to the US Open fanfare. I slept in my car with my buddies many a time and the place was always on the short list for many people in the metro NY area.

The only thing the US Open did was alert EVEN MORE people nationwide and globally about the Black.

The other courses have also had their share of players but I've been going to the Black for well over 30 years and can speak to the issue that difficulty alone didn't stop them from playing. The slow play situation is another matter as it takes time to make a 10 on a hole.

Regarding cheap people -- any smart course that seeks such players is wasting their TIME in big time capital letters. You never lower your price when you have a brand that delivers. Once you start down that road those type of "loyal" players will only want more and more bargains. The best bargain is saying adios to this cheap crowd. Jersey did that and the level of public courses and architecture has risen noticeably because of the competition.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

The Black was LOADED even prior to the US Open fanfare. I slept in my car with my buddies many a time and the place was always on the short list for many people in the metro NY area.

The only thing the US Open did was alert EVEN MORE people nationwide and globally about the Black.

The other courses have also had their share of players but I've been going to the Black for well over 30 years and can speak to the issue that difficulty alone didn't stop them from playing. The slow play situation is another matter as it takes time to make a 10 on a hole.

Regarding cheap people -- any smart course that seeks such players is wasting their TIME in big time capital letters. You never lower your price when you have a brand that delivers. Once you start down that road those type of "loyal" players will only want more and more bargains. The best bargain is saying adios to this cheap crowd. Jersey did that and the level of public courses and architecture has risen noticeably because of the competition.

Matt,

Cheap or of limited means? Come on here, I think you're getting a little out of hand with your generalizations. I can't say that I've ever gotten $100.00 of enjoyment out of a golf course, that's a value and utility judgment.

What is the state of the game of golf in New Jersey? Participation? New players?

I really don't know, just curious.

Thanks for the clarification on the Black, I had been under the impression that it wasn't very crowded (or was, but from overflow) based on anecdotal evidence from people I've played with at Bethpage.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Break down and open the wallet partner because the moths are just dying to come out. The Black is still a bargain given the superior architecture and conditions provided. I've bitched and moaned about the lack of loyalty to out-of-state regular players but the simple truth is that Bethpage State Park is owned by the taxpayers of The Empire State and they do provide a bargain for those players. Whatever tee times are then available is still worth playing for those who long to play a top tier public course.

The state-of-the-game in Jersey? Kyle -- do you read what I posted? I made the case from personal observation how the overall Jersey public golf market rose from a bleak background to one of stellar qualities. The competition between key players -- at the CCFAD and taxpayer owned levels -- made that a reality today. I mentioned Heron Glen before and it is simply a peach of a course and still provides quality rates for both in county and out of county residents. The efforts in Monmouth, Somerset and Morris Counties have also risen the bar.

The issue in eastern Pennsy public golf as I see it is that the folks at the top need a better vision on what the potential is. Moran is a talented architect and has provided two very good public layouts. If people can't scratch the extra nickel or dime to play it then head over to that peach of a layout called Cobbs Creek and play off the hardpan fairways and greens.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

Break down and open the wallet partner because the moths are just dying to come out. The Black is still a bargain given the superior architecture and conditions provided. I've bitched and moaned about the lack of loyalty to out-of-state regular players but the simple truth is that Bethpage State Park is owned by the taxpayers of The Empire State and they do provide a bargain for those players. Whatever tee times are then available is still worth playing for those who long to play a top tier public course.

The state-of-the-game in Jersey? Kyle -- do you read what I posted? I made the case from personal observation how the overall Jersey public golf market rose from a bleak background to one of stellar qualities. The competition between key players -- at the CCFAD and taxpayer owned levels -- made that a reality today. I mentioned Heron Glen before and it is simply a peach of a course and still provides quality rates for both in county and out of county residents. The efforts in Monmouth, Somerset and Morris Counties have also risen the bar.

The issue in eastern Pennsy public golf as I see it is that the folks at the top need a better vision on what the potential is. Moran is a talented architect and has provided two very good public layouts. If people can't scratch the extra nickel or dime to play it then head over to that peach of a layout called Cobbs Creek and play off the hardpan fairways and greens.

Matt,

You'll hear no argument from me regarding Bethpage being a bargain. Just that one day at the Black Course represents a little bit more than a day's take home pay for me. I can't justify that right now. Even the Red (my favorite) at $72.00 is a bit much. Maybe once I finish up my degree and get into the superintedents' field a bit that will change, but right now I gotta find more "bang for my buck."

Jeffersonville is my ideal.

I've taken your posts to mean quality of architecture. I am asking about the state of the game in New Jersey and not just the courses. What are the participation rates and how many new players are entering the fold?

Do you think the barrier of entry into the game (cost included) has increased or decreased with the increase in quality architecture?

Stuff like that is the better indicator (in my opinion) for the future health and quality of the game than quality of architecture.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

You want bang for buck here's a good listing of Jersey alternatives that are near enough for you to visit.

Heron Glen (Hunterdon County)

Any of the following taxpayer-owned courses in these counties:

Somerset (try the new Neshanic Valley layout)
Monmouth (especially Hominy Hill in Colts Neck)
Morris (avoid Berkshire Valley)

That's just for starters.

Kyle, I don't have solid empirical evidence but the simple fact is that the various counties I just mentioned have done studies to demonstrate the clear need for such recreational pursuits such as golf. I can also tell you the tee sheets have plenty of people just looking to jump into the mix.

The issue is keeping the price points competitive. Jersey hit its wall when certain facilities started to hit the $125 level. That is just not doable unless the layout were of a Bethpage Black quality. None in Jersey is.

What barrier? The people in New Jersey have a solid mixture of different courses by different architects and in all corners of the state. I say that's a good thing. The idea that the sky will fall in Pennsy is nonsense. The issue is that developers and management companies need to produce product that drives the people to come forward. Lederach and Morgan Hill have that potential.

I don't agree with you regarding your downplaying quality architecture. People develop sensitivity through exposure. I certainly did and my beginnings in golf came from dirt prone muni type courses. I wasn't born on third base and thought I hit a triple as some think. Give people an opportunity to sample what real quality golf is about and the rest can take care of itself if cultivated properly by ownership. It happened in Jersey -- it can happen elsewhere.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

You want bang for buck here's a good listing of Jersey alternatives that are near enough for you to visit.

Heron Glen (Hunterdon County)

Any of the following taxpayer-owned courses in these counties:

Somerset (try the new Neshanic Valley layout)
Monmouth (especially Hominy Hill in Colts Neck)
Morris (avoid Berkshire Valley)

That's just for starters.

Kyle, I don't have solid empirical evidence but the simple fact is that the various counties I just mentioned have done studies to demonstrate the clear need for such recreational pursuits such as golf. I can also tell you the tee sheets have plenty of people just looking to jump into the mix.

The issue is keeping the price points competitive. Jersey hit its wall when certain facilities started to hit the $125 level. That is just not doable unless the layout were of a Bethpage Black quality. None in Jersey is.

What barrier? The people in New Jersey have a solid mixture of different courses by different architects and in all corners of the state. I say that's a good thing. The idea that the sky will fall in Pennsy is nonsense. The issue is that developers and management companies need to produce product that drives the people to come forward. Lederach and Morgan Hill have that potential.

I don't agree with you regarding your downplaying quality architecture. People develop sensitivity through exposure. I certainly did and my beginnings in golf came from dirt prone muni type courses. I wasn't born on third base and thought I hit a triple as some think. Give people an opportunity to sample what real quality golf is about and the rest can take care of itself if cultivated properly by ownership. It happened in Jersey -- it can happen elsewhere.

Thanks for the response. I've played both Heron Glen (a favorite while I was working at Cherry Valley in Princeton) and Neshanic Valley (this past March, and the two nines that were "closest" to the clubhouse) and enjoyed both. I'd go back, but again, Neshanic's green fee is still up in the $70.00 range and the course is an hour plus drive for me. It's worth a trip once or twice a season, but is not a regular destination candidate.

But I think you're touching on my point with the price ceiling being around $125.00, and I'd argue that regular golfers (in terms of frequency of play) who can pay that much per round aren't exactly looking for municipal golf, they're already members somewhere.

Barriers to entry for golf (by that I mean what a beginner must do to play) include cost of equipment, lessons, and playing, and availability to play. More courses certainly eliminate the lack of availability, but driving up the bar in green fee and difficulty will drive up the barrier in those respective categories as well.

Your healthy mix is certainly a great point, and I hope you don't take my position to mean that I would not like to see mroe courses of the architectural calibre of Lederach and Morgan Hill built in our area (and they are, slowly but surely), however, I feel these courses may need to be a bit more aggressive in regard to positioning themselves in the market based on cost, especially once the "newness" wears thin.

Another interesting thing about the New Jersey public golf scene is the relative lack of quality private courses (in Neshanic's area, I've only played Raritan Valley and Stanton Ridge, though Cherry Valley, Bedens Brook, and Hopewell Valley aren't terribly far and of course excepting the Somerset Hills and Baltusrols of the world) and all are mediocre at best in terms of architecture. So there may be more of a market for good design public golf in that area than here in Philadelphia, where the golfer who can afford $125 a round is probably a member at Philmont, Huntingdon Valley, Lulu, Manny's, Rolling Green, White Manor or Gulph Mills.

And yes, I grew up playing Five Ponds and surround courses, so I feel you in that regard as well.