Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !

[Dan Herrmann]

Much of the Pennsy psyche is still tied to the "value" equation and as a result you don't get the massive number of CCFAD's that have succeeded in the Garden State.

Matt,
Isn't such a Pennsylvania psyche better for the long-term health of the golf business based on your observation?  CCFADs may have been the golf equivalant of the McMansion - overpriced, architecturally void, and full of empty space.  (yes, I admit that I'm hyping for the sake of the discussion  )

[mike_malone]

 Well , the true test for Lederach comes on Monday morning when my "winter" golfing buddies show up based on my recommendation. They are a good group of average golfers who have grown in their architectural awareness thanks to my teachings

[Matt_Ward]

Mayday:

I salute the owners for being so bold with Lederach. It would have been easier to do what others have done and that would have meant more of what Pennsy has had.

[mike_malone]

 Matt,

   I played Makefield Whatever and had the thought that I had seen all of this before and didn't need to drive an hour to see it again!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The good news for PA public golf is that KBM's new course-Heritage Creek- is under construction in Bucks County and should be open in 2008.


www.kellyblakemoran.com/heritage%20creek%20blog.html



I think Matt's hypothetical placement of Lederach in the top 5 of NJ publics is high praise.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Keep in mind I placed Lederach thaaat high in Jersey under the belief (I'm praying for it) that firm and fast conditions will be the rule -- not the exception when the course hits its full stride in year two. If the layout is nothing more than tee shot hitting a splat of overwatered fairways then the original intent of the Moran design will be badly served for all involved.

Dan H:

The issue is that you have to some sort of return for people to make the effort to build golf courses. The Pennsy public mindset of paying $10 green fees is about as current as the dinosaurs which ruled the earth a loooooooooooong time ago.

Check out the Poconos -- until the rumblings of very recent times -- and you will see what I mean. The place is simply a mess because owners simply branded their facilities sooooo low on the totem pole and did not feel compelled to put some added $$ in their respective facilities.

The reality is that the overall health of the Pennsy public golf market has suffered in terms of strict catering to the penny-pincher crowd that affects the Keystone State. The same thing happened in the greater Pittsburgh market until Quick Silver in Midway hit the scene. Again, it took a concerted effort to overcome this nagging problem.

Lederach is a very bold vision on what golf design can be. I salute the owners in selecting Moran because it would have been very easy to simply add another predictable fast food public design.

Lederach needs to brand itself more fully because its overall success can go a very long way in bringing to life the Pennsy public golf market which historically is akin to George Romeo's Dawn of the Dead.

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt, I agree on the sorry state of most of PA public golf - I was just pushing the discussion.  There is no doubt that the Poconos represet bad, bad, bad architecture, and it's a shame because it could've been a place where architecuture thrived.

Metro Philly also has a number of very poor public courses.  We certainly don't need to name them, but many are simply bad.

Fortunately, Lederach is not one of them, and I hope that Mayday's winter golfing buddies "get it".  My fear is that folks used to playing a course like Pickering may hate Lederach - let's hope that my fears are unfounded.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

The key is for Casper Golf -- which has the management contract at Lederach -- to brand the course as being BEYOND the junk food stuff that calls itself quality public golf in and around the greater Philadelphia area.

Frankly, I am sick of these silly Cobbs Creek stories on what the potential is. It's not going to happen without a completely new mindset and I don't see it happening.

Lederach represents something beyond just being good for public golf -- it's a statement on what architecture can be for the broader audience that plays non-affiliated golf courses on a steady basis.

[Cliff Hamm]

 if you want to mention one that should draw more ink but doesn't try Great Bear in Marshalls Creek.

Matt...isn't Great Bear private?  Also, would love for you to list top 10 NJ and Eastern Pa as you indicated Lederach is potentially 5 in such a list.

[Matt_Ward]

Cliff:

Mea culpa on my part -- I believe Great Bear has sadly gone in the direction as a private club although there's still limited access the bulk of play is no longer in the publc realm.

Off the top of my head the best top four public in NJ would be:

ACCC (just became public a short time ago)
Ballyowen
Pine Barrens
Twisted Dune
*Possibly Scotland Run as well

I could see Lederach -- when firm and fast -- jumping into that kind of company. Keep in mind when Hawk Pointe was public (another Moran design in Washington Twsp, NJ) it was among the top ten rated by Jersey Golfer. I see Lederach with even more potential than that fine layout.

The northeastern Pennsy area -- with the major exception being Morgan Hill -- as being a wasteland for public golf. You do have places that have some interesting aspects -- like Stone Hedge in Tunckhannock Twsp -- just outside Scranton. I personally believe the uphill second hole there is among the top 18 public in the Keystone State. Ditto the unique aspects of the par-5 12th. But that's more the exception than the rule.

The Poconos could have a rebirth -- but that's like saying democracy might just take root in Iraq. There's been money pumped into a few places -- most notably Mount Airy Lodge but as I said previously the Jersey / NY crowd doesn't have to make the haul there when there are plenty of customer savvy and first rate golf options much closer to home.

For too long the Pennsy public mantra was to go cheap and as a result the outcomes were predictable -- boring layouts with little, if anything, noteworthy on the design front.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

What about Central PA? I'm thinking of the 2 Hershey courses which I like and some others that I haven't played- Dauphin Highlands, Links at Gettysburg,etc. I didn't care for PB Dye's Iron Valley.

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Fair point on the Harrisburg side -- by I've played all the ones you mentioned and they are not in the same league with Morgan Hill and Lederach. I like Dauphin Highlands, Links of Gettysburg and Iron Valley but they are all second tier and minus a few spots really don't have much on the design front that would make such a trek from any distance beyond 50 miles worthwhile.

If you want a layout that's beyond the ones you mentioned try Greencastle Greens -- right off I-81 on the border between Pennsy and MD -- greencastlegreensgolf.com. I like the layout but have not been back for a few years now.

Steve -- Lederach is a good ways ahead of this stuff because the ones mentioned are often the basic fast food design type stuff on the golf side.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

Where do Wyncote and Glen Mills fit into your equation? Both are generally regarded as among the better publics in the eastern PA area.

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Both are certainly up there and I would recommend them over the ones listed for Central Pennsy and that includes the Harrisburg area.

I had forgotten about Wyncote and believe it often gets little attention - especially when put side to side with Glen Mills which I believe gets plenty of brownie points because of course conditioning, customer service, etc, etc.

Wyncote is worth a play when people are in the Oxford area. I'd play it before Hartefeld National which is now private.

[mike_malone]

 Matt,

   While I appreciate your work in categorizing these courses by state, I wonder how you see a 1 hour from N.Y.city versus 1 hour from Phila. comparison matching up.

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt,
FYI - Morgan Hill (Easton) is certainly not northern Pennsylvania.  

You may want to look up to Scranton and/or Erie for a true northern PA experience.

[mike_malone]

 I just got the initial review from my "boys". They didn't like the amount of "stuff" in the middle of the fairway. I will get more detail later.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

Forgive me on the geography lesson -- how bout we count Morgan Hill in the East Central portion of the state? Does that work for you?

Mayday:

The one hour drive you mentioned from NYC versus that of Philadelphia is closer on the private side than it is on the public side -- unless you want me to include those sections of New Jersey -- North Jersey to NYC and South Jersey to Phila.

The Philadelphia market for public golf has only begun to show some serious life -- thank heavens for Moran's additions at MH and Lederach. My opinion is that the well-to-do Pennsy golf enthusiast likely has a membership at one of the better private clubs and for the most part the cost to join such clubs is likely to be cheaper than counterparts found in the greater NY metro area.

Frankly, public golf strictly within the Empire State is no great shakes either with the lone major exception being Bethpage Black. I've opined on this before but I can make a verystrong case that New Jersey, despite its lack of size, has the better depth in terms of quality public offerings -- from both the CCFAD and taxpayer-owned sides of the aisles.

That's what makes Lederach so unique -- the challenge will be for Billy Casper golf to successfully market the place as being the public course with the most to offer. Unfortunately, when people are used to fast food or fast food golf design it's hard to wean yourself off that crap and see where the true cuisine is located.



 

[mike_malone]

 Matt,

   The hour from Philly includes both Scotland Run and Twisted Dune. Possibly also Pine Barrens ( I haven't been there yet.). And for those of us just South of town Bulle Rock and Beechtree are a straight shot down I-95. So, this is a formidable group.

[Matt_Ward]

Mayday:

You missed my reply -- I stated that if you cross the Delaware -- from either NY or Penna you would include the top tier layouts from Jersey.

If you stay completely within the borders, as I previously stated, you would see how lacking the respective Empire and Keystone States are on the public side of the golf design argument.

[mike_malone]

 That is exactly what I wanted you to do. After all New Jersey doesn't really exist anyway! The TV stations don't recognize its existence .


       If you see a NY suburban public golf versus a Philly suburban golf  (with roughly 1 hour being the outskirts) how does it come out?

[Matt_Ward]

Mayday:

It's likely close but keep in mind MY POINT was that if one stayed within the respective states that both The Empire and Keystone States would trail noticeable the collective quality that the Garden State (TV stations or not !!!) offers.

[mike_malone]

 Matt,

    I got your point; I just wanted you to do a little work.  But, I expect that Pennsyljersey is better than New Yorjersey in your mind from what you have said.

[Matt_Ward]

Mayday:

Sure -- because when you include the bulk of courses that inhabit the AC and south area along the Jersey Shore you begin to pile up a few solid layouts -- notably -- Twisted Dune to start things off.

Keep in mind that Lederach is really breaking new ground and candidly is doing for the greater Philadelphia suburbs what Rustic Canyon and Barona Creek have done for the SoCal area in terms of raising the bar for public golf.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

In all seriousness, the course is 3 months old. I understand what you're saying about the status of public golf in PA (and when I get time after class will post some thoughts on it) but to say that Lederach has had an impact so far is nonsense.

Apart from this group, the reviews have not been terribly favorable.

$40+ twilight on a weekend (with mandatory cart) is a horrible business model for the Philadelphia area.

Montgomery County has the highest per capita golf course ratio in the country.

This doesn't add up to success necessarily, especially with somewhat solid layouts like PineCrest (Ron Prichard), Makefield Highlands (Rick Jacobson) and Jeffersonville (Ross/Prichard) in the area at near or lesser the price.

Lederach is going to have to change on the management end a bit the minute the glow from the newness wears off.