Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !

[Mike_Cirba]

Just a couple of thoughts...

Jeffersonville is the best "value" course in the state, dollar for dollar.  It's the "Mark Twain GC" of PA.

It's also more forgiving for the beginner, because it's tough to lose a ball out there, save for a couple of creeks, an instance of OB or two, and the pond on 18.  

Matt will think it's too short, and for his game, he may be right.

Lederach is something very different and special and even though there are more opportunities to lose a ball, there is a lot of forgiveness and width built in.   It's just not as lenient as Jeff (which is a "core routing), simply because the housing considerations dictate the routing to the edges (and wetlands, et.al.) of the property in some cases.  It's also a more rolling property than Jeff, which is both good and bad for purposes of architecture...good for the ability to create more interesting, captivating, and stimulating holes, and bad because of sidehill kicks, etc., which have been mentioned as potential lost balls into the gunk.

I'd conclude by saying that while Jeff is the sort of course anyone can play and enjoy again and again, Lederach seems to me to be like the Beatles "White Album";  experimental, daring, varied, sometimes flawed, restricted in practice but not in imagination, but overall an exercise in mental stimulation and drawing from many, many fathers for inspiration yet somehow also uniquely original.  

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Kyle:

If you favor the work of blue collar oriented Jim B then make a side trip to Stone Hedge (Tunckhannock Twsp.) -- right up your alley -- solid design and the price is quite right for those Pennsy folks who have the short arms and deep pockets.

Not you, of course, Kyle.



You're not the first to tell me about Stone Hedge and I will get up there eventually.

He's not the first to tell you about short arms and deep pockets, either  

[wsmorrison]

"...Lederach seems to me to be like the Beatles "White Album";  experimental, daring, varied, sometimes flawed, restricted in practice but not in imagination, but overall an exercise in mental stimulation and drawing from many, many fathers for inspiration yet somehow also uniquely original."


Mike,

You sure can write; you need to write a book about something.  You are a hip version of Jim Finegan.  Can you imagine Jim writing about a course and describing it as a kind of Dark Side of the Moon sort of golf experience.  Maybe a Fazio/Trump collaboration inspired by "Money."   Money, it's a hit.  Don't give me none of that goody good BS!

[Craig_Rokke]

I'd agree that Mike is an excellent writer, and he may have a point about Lederach and some similarities to The White Album. Though I'm quite sure no hallucinogens facilitated the design process, "Revolution #1" is appropriate when one gets to the first crazy green and realizes that this isn't going to be typical public course fare. I felt a little "Helter Skelter" was playing when I was checking out 11, and #12
seems to recall "Long, Long, Long." After playing 18 holes in the sweltering heat: "I'm so Tired."

[Mike_Cirba]

Guys,

You embarrass me.    

Glad you enjoy my ramblings after 3 beers.  

Actually, I was thinking that #11 was more like "Back In The USSR".   They tell you there are options and choices but instead you must always go to the Left.  

[Craig_Rokke]

That was BAD!

[Mike_Cirba]

Craig,

Then I won't bother telling you which hole is "Why Don't We Do It In The Road".  

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

If memory serves you gave Lederach a Doak "6" rating.

What number would you give Jeffersonville strictly on architectural grounds? The affordability element is an aside IMHO. Although for those deep pocketed Pennsy public players it may be the #1 item of concern.

Thanks ...

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

5.  

The problem I have comparing it directly to Lederach is that one can find lots of DR courses that exhibit what you'll find at Jeff.  

There aren't many Lederach's around that thumb their nose at modern conventions and expectations, so from a purely architectural standpoint I think it definitely should be seen which is the point of the Doak Scale.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Thanks.

If you can apply a Doak number to Morgan Hill I would be most appreciative.

One last thing -- if you had ten rounds to play between Lederach and Morgan Hill how would you set your time accordingly?

Appreciate the reply ...

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

Sure.

Any course that had 3 GREAT par fives (a rarity in any league) deserves mention.   The fact that the course was built on land that I would have thought to be way too severe for golf considerations means to me that it's pretty close to a Doak 6, despite one dropshot par three too many.

Between the two I'd choose Lederach 6 to 4, or even 7 to 3, simply because I think I'd discover more each time I played it and I'm not sure that Morgan Hill has those type of subtle, nuanced details.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Thanks for sharing the split in terms of your preferences for rounds to be played. Must be really tough for some others here in GCA land when I asked a similar thing in regards to two other courses in the USA.

I agree with you but will add this -- Morgan Hill is testament to Moran's ability to route a course on a very demanding site and save for just a few instances -- the drop-shot at #12 which was redundant and you also mentioned it -- plus the lackluster finishing hole -- the totality of what you find there is a tremendous talent to get the most out of the property.

At Lederach you see less in terms of architectural compromises because the site is less severe -- although still rolling in spots.

Lederach, in firm and fast conditions, could go a bit higher in my overall standing. Be very interested to know what the time line is for the completion of the champ tee at #1.

I would likely have my split be no less than what you mentioned.

[Kyle Harris]

Not sure if I agree here gents. I'd probably go 6-4 in favor of Morgan Hill. I like the severity and all the shots that exist there, especially around the greens.

I think Morgan Hill has more variance in green depth and size, allowing for different distances to come into play. A lot of Lederach has greens (1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 12, 14, 15, 17) where not as much depth exists and the variance isn't there.

Mike or Doug, does the yardage book have green depths? From memory, I'd venture to say most of them are in the 20-30 yard range, which isn't terribly deep.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

You raise a few key points but I have to say this the totality of the design is what separates Lederach from Morgan Hill. At Morgan Hill you have a solid job by Moran in dealing with a very demanding site. All of it fits quite well although there are a few holes that sort of serve as a transition point to get to other key areas of the property -- the blah par-3 9th and the redundant drop-shot 12th hole take you to different points to get to better holes -- the medium length lpar-4 10th is one example -- the superb uphil par-5 13th another.

Lederach has, IMHO, the better tie-in for tee to green and the complexity of the putting surfaces at Lederach are also more intense.

Generally, it's hard to find a situation where the two dominant courses in a very small area of land can be so thought provoking as these do certainly are.

Kyle -- just for the sake of discussion -- what Doak number do you give for Morgan Hill. I'm guessing it's less than 6 -- likely a five. Sound about right?

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

Day to day my thoughts on Morgan Hill change, right now it's in the Doak 5-6 range. I've played Lederach more out of convenience and would like to get back to Morgan Hill. I will say that YTD, Morgan Hill has been my best golf experience.

Curious comment about Lederach's green tie-ins. For the sake of speculation, what if the greens there were expanded to include more of the surrounds? My first candidate would be the 4th green.

I do agree about the severity of Lederach's greens being more intense, but considering the relatively severe site Morgan Hill is on, the green surfaces are probably more "docile" on purpose.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Good point on the nature of how Moran played down the greens intensity at Morgan Hill because of the severe site although there are quite a few that certainly test your nerve. The 1st hole is quite demanding as a green site because the landing area for an uphill putt is quite limited -- as it should be for either a short pitch or a go at the green in two blows.

Unlike Morgan Hill, Lederach has few weak points in terms of the routing and transition points when making one's way around the property -- very little drop-off in terms of hole quality and the nature of the routing takes you to all corners without a noticeable drop in terms of hole quality. Unfortunately, extremely hilly sites have that ingrained obstacle because you have to circumvent what the land provides and still keep the golf challenging but not overly so.

[Dan Herrmann]

Guys,

You embarrass me.    

Glad you enjoy my ramblings after 3 beers.  

Actually, I was thinking that #11 was more like "Back In The USSR".   They tell you there are options and choices but instead you must always go to the Left.  

Mike,
You gotta come back out to French Creek and help me finish my "My Home Course" with your super writing skills.  I'm read your stuff and Michael Moore's stuff on Maine, and I realize that I'm not worthy  

[Craig_Rokke]

You may need 3 lagers, Dan  

[Mike_Cirba]

You may need 3 lagers, Dan  

Dan,

Make it 6 and your "My Home Course" may end up sounding like something written by Allen Ginsberg.    

[Kyle Harris]

You may need 3 lagers, Dan  

Dan,

Make it 6 and your "My Home Course" may end up sounding like something written by Allen Ginsberg.    

Hell, I'd do it all in Iambic Pentameter.

[Matt_Ward]

Just curious -- since a few people rated Lederach a 6 on the Doak scale -- I wonder how many other public courses would those who are in the know would merit the same number or higher solely among the public courses in the Keystone State?

Thanks ...

[Garland Bayley]

"Great golf courses should have at least one silly hole."   FRANK HANNIGAN

The above was on Geoff Schakelford's website today. Made me think of all the discussion I have seen of #11 at Lederach. Is it the silly hole of a if not great, then very good golf course?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

I can't think of another public course in PA that rates a 6 or higher on the Doak scale.

Garland

Let's just say that 11 at Lederach is controversial.

[Craig_Rokke]

If you go by what the golf mags say, Glen Mills may be the #1 public in the state. I'd give that strong consideration as a "6". I know it's not without its faults, but for me, Inniscrone is in that general realm of things as well. "5"s are certainly easier to find than "6"'s.

[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

Have to say I agree with you -- the 11th is indeed a weird hole. I played super aggressive with the tee shot and was successful in cutting off the corner and leaving a short flip but the idea of doing such a play over and over again would be a head scratching event no doubt.

I don't see the purpose in forcing the weaker player with only one option far out to the left. I only wish the narrow right side would be a tad wider to encourage such risky ventures.

The green site is also a worthy discussion issue. It's quite narrow and long and does require a steady hand on the approach.

I give Moran credit for pushing the envelope. The 11th is indeed a puzzling but clearly differeent hole but one that doesn't override what the totality of Lederach provides.

Steve:

I agree -- Pennsy public golf is still thread bare. Lederach clearly proves it belongs at the head of the class for now. Be very interested in seeing how the turf matures when year two unfolds in '07.