Moran's Pennsy Public Golf Push ... Lederach !

[Dan Herrmann]

or you can play Hickory Valley/Presidential in Gilbertsville for $18 after 2pm.  I think Ron Prichard designed 9 holes here.

I found the course to be very nice, especially considering the price.

It'd never be on a best-of list, but you can certainly do worse.

[Kyle Harris]

Prichard's 9 at Hickory Valley are holes 2-10 on the Presidential Course which are a solid stretch and probably a bit better than his original work at PineCrest. If I didn't have to play the rest of the course, that would be a nice 9 holer...  

I found the rest of the course to be a bit lacking. I played a PAT there in 2002, for the record, so I was seeing a pretty easy setup.

In that area, you definitely can do worse... Gilbertsville, Butter Valley and Macoby Run are alllll clunkers.

Paging Mike Cirba!!!!  

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

You want a perfect answer when no can be given. I've pointed out the variety of Jersey courses and the varying price points that are available. The model here works quite well.

You say you want golf below $70 I offered various counties in Jersey that do it. You need to be a resident to get the lowest rate but if you venture to Somerset County you can pay Quail Brook for a much lower rate than the premium the county is charging now for Neshanic.

Kyle -- I think you need to get realistic about your price points -- you likely have Pennsy-public-fee-itis. The idea that $10 golf is around the corner disappeared when the Indians left town. I see plenty of Jersey courses that are successfully branded for different types of players so that they access these courses. Heron Glen is just one example -- the folks at Crystal Springs have made it a cottage industry on how they pursue players of various types.

You mentioned "regular" golfers and I don't know what you mean. The NGF places a different sort of defnition and frankly the core golfers is the one that makes the biggest impact on any club's botton line. The guy who simply plays less than five times a year isn't going to try something more upscale but there are places in Jersey where that is possible.

You glossed over my main point -- the exposure to quality architecture can raise the bar in terms of what players do want when they play. The Jersey marketplace did respond once the product was produced.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I'd say in today's market that a $125 price point is too high in the area. Probably $75 is the top end for most. Pine Hill and Hartefeld still accept some public play above that number- $100plus. Wyncote is 65/85 primetime before noon. Afternoon and twilight rates are lower but it's too far for me to drive given the price of fuel even though the senior rate is $35 M-Th. Glen Mills is 75/90 primetime before twilight and a great $55 senior rate M-W before 11am. I'll drive there. I won't drive to Neshanic Valley and pay the $70 non resident rate. I'd rather play Heron Glen if I'm going to NJ.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Try Quail Brook in Franklin Twsp (Somerset County) just off I-287 next time you venture to Jersey. Very modest and quite well done by Ed Ault -- the last two holes will give any other public course in Jersey a run for their money.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

I'm not necessarily looking for the one-fits-all course, just getting an idea of the market in New Jersey as opposed to PA. There are plenty of options across the river for me (Achitects, especially on PA Tuesday, and Royce Brook come to mind). But the time and travel costs are factored into the equation as well. A $50.00 day at Heron Glen becomes an $80.00 when travel time and costs are factored in. Considering that, the cost for the Hunterdon County taxpayer is MUCH less, and probably as it should be.

You must have started your response after I clarified what I meant by "regular golfer." I mean regular to mean a golfer who plays frequently. I'd venture to say that in Pennsylvania, the regular golfer who could play at a CCFAD on a regular basis (once a week at least?) (or at least afford that $125 price ceiling) would be a member somewhere private.

Is that the case as much in New Jersey? Based on what you've said about the feasability studies done by Somerset County I'd say no, since there was obviously a market for high-end public golf.

Could it be reasoned that the lack of quality high-end public golf in Eastern PA is a result of the already present surplus of high-end private golf in the area and that New Jersey simply had the reverse model?

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

With all due respect -- how many times must I type the same answer until you finally get it.

They do speak and comprehend English in Pennsy don't they?

The model in Jersey is quite diversified and you often get what you pay for. If you want bare bones golf there are several counties that can provide a decent place to play. As you pay more there are also places that add on a variety of elements -- including design quality.

Kyle, I have written this over and over and over again.

It bores me to keep on explaining what you should have gotten the first time.

If you can't afford to come to Jersey for whatever the reasons then stay in Pennsy and knock yourself out. Likely in about 20 years or thereabouts the overall level of public golf on the other side of the Delaware will reach comparable status with what we have on the east side of the river.

P.S. The courses that came on the Jersey side of the Delaware across from Easton came after the fact from the ones that pre-existed in Pennsy. They succeeded even with higher fees and have kept home the Jersey / NY market. Why? Because the overall quality of the golf is better -- with the lone exception being Morgan Hill which is sooooo close to Jersey as to almost be there. No one from Jersey is itching to race over to Southmoor -- I can tell you that.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

I did get it the first time. Read my questions, they're about the market, I know it's gonna cost me to get to New Jersey and play, and yes, I do have to stay on this side of the river most of the time.

Heck, even on this side of the river the cost gets excessive. A buddy just called to play Saturday at 10AM at Island Green, and that green fee is going to be $59.00. That's even higher than Neshanic for an resident at the same time on the same day.

I just want to know the "why" on both ends, because that, to me at least, is the first question to ask when we consider whether or not Lederach and Morgan Hill will lead to a rennaisance of Philadelphia Public Golf.

For the record, we also SPELL English correctly over here in PennsyLVANIA.  

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

I answered the "why" you seek MANY TIMES.

There is a "why" that remains -- as to "why" you don't get it !

P.S. Morgan Hill and Lederach have laid the seeds for a potential renaissance on the west side of the Delaware. Will it happen -- I have faith it will and I also believe the level of interest for varying income levels can be achieved. Jersey has shown that.

If you want a more pressing reality -- observe the Poconos and what they are planning to do with a few layouts there. The Jersey model will be their springboard if they are ever to get off their collective fat asses there.

[Craig_Rokke]

Kyle:

I answered the "why" you seek MANY TIMES.

There is a "why" that remains -- as to "why" you don't get it !

P.S. Morgan Hill and Lederach have laid the seeds for a potential renaissance on the west side of the Delaware. Will it happen -- I have faith it will and I also believe the level of interest for varying income levels can be achieved. Jersey has shown that.

If you want a more pressing reality -- observe the Poconos and what they are planning to do with a few layouts there. The Jersey model will be their springboard if they are ever to get off their collective fat asses there.

Matt-
What are they planning to do with a few layouts in the Poconos?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

KBM's new course in Bucks County-Heritage Creek- is the only new public course under construction in Bucks and Montgomery counties. I don't think anything public is planned in Chester and Delaware counties other than the new conversion of Inniscrone from private to public. That's all folks.That's the renaissance.

Otherwise, a course that hasn't been mentioned in NJ with fairly easy access is Riverwinds, just across the Walt Whitman Bridge. Primetime rates there are $59 M-Th, $65 F and $75 Sa&Su. Senior rates are $45 M-Th. I'll drive there.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Let's be a bit more realistic where the renaissance might just happen. The land costs in Bucks (and immediate other counties) is exactly what the name implies. If anything the next ring of EX-urbs is where the golf courses may come because land acquisition is a good bit less than anything within a 50-mile perimeter around Center City.

You will also see a possible movement in having new efforts taken with existing courses and having them upgraded. Far cheaper and easier to accelerate than to go through the entire process from land all the way through permitting.

Craig:

Mount Airy Lodge will be undergoing a major makeover of the "famed" Hal Purdy design. The course has its moments -- both laughable and good and the facilities are also in need of updating as the place reeks of the 60's and all the heart shaped tubs that were advertised in NYC and Phila media over the years.

If the Poconos can re-establish itself, even to a small degree, the opportunity for better golf is certainly there.

[Craig_Rokke]

Matt-

Glad to here that about Mt Airy. The course has the potential to be "decent." Last time I was there, there was a downhill par 3 that was very close to demanding a shot over a very mature pine tree. The facilities, to my knowledge, have thankfully been bulldozed.

My wife's family lives a couple miles from there. We checked
out 4 reception possibilities for our wedding. To round out the quartet, I was curious to see Mt Airy. Though it had more or less been ruled out before our visit, we did it as a courtesy to
my in laws who knew the owner through business. It was everything I feared it would be. The last feature was a "typical" guest room. The wedding planner pushes the guest room door open to reveal a room with very bad water damage. It was musty and moldy, and the ceiling literally was one drop of water away from completely caving in!


Anyone seen Jack Frost Nat'l yet?

[Andy Hughes]

observe the Poconos and what they are planning to do with a few layouts there

Matt, you had my hopes up with this!

Any news of anything else going on with any of my boyhood courses?

PS Been following this thread a bit--interesting, good to see PA coming along.

[Craig_Rokke]

I believe Pocono Manor recently changed hands. My hope is that the West Course is totally plowed under and started fresh, and that the East gets a nice makeover, starting with loads of tree removal. For that matter start a 3rd course with the thousands of acres at their disposal. It's only $. Well see.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy, et al:

Let's hold the phone big time on the Poconos.

It will take nothing less than a MARSHALL PLAN in order for the region to become something of a must play. Frankly, the start-up of Mount Airy Lodge should have been done years ago.

There are places where courses can be improved but in some cases even major surgery won't change the fact that the region has used golf more as a side feature than a main aspect.

Craig:

I always laughed at Mt Airy when you saw foursome piled up like a car wreck and they were playing what is truly one of the worst opening holes in all of golf -- an uphill par-5 with a blind water hazard in the vicinity of one's second or third shots.

I can remember playing Mt. Airy and the round last sooooo long as to make playing at Bethpage Black feel like you were at a Nascar race.

The par-3 you mentioned, I believe, is the equally stupid 9th hole. Played from the tips it's entirely blind.

Mt Airy can be made into something because unlike other Pocono oriented courses there is land for some serious rethinking.

I can only hope the people doing the golf course are not the same ones blessed with the interio designed skills you mentioned in your post. They should simply keep one room for old-time sakes to enlighten people on what was the "in" thing not too many years ago.

[Mike_Cirba]

I was a waiter at Mt. Airy Lodge for a spell around 1980 and it was my first taste of unfettered capitalism in action.   We were "lodged" in what amounted to slave quarters and the rent was directly deducted from our checks.  The accommodations did include a dirty, stained, mattress on the floor with no bedding, and there was a pistol atop the filthy sink.  Coming from a nice, lower-middle-class home where people treated each other with respect, it was quite an awakening to the "real world" and I always wondered how the owners could treat other humans like that and still sleep at night.

Some years later I spent a "romantic weekend" at the Lodge, replete with red satin walls, a heart shaped tub, and as much 1960s-era schmaltz as could be packed into one overdone environment.   The place only needed Henny Youngman's "Take My Wife Please" routine (I think he was coming next week) to be a surreal, stereotypical Lounge Lizard movie comedy put on by Quentin Tarantino or that Waters guy with the pencil thin mustache.  

I was there when they were building the golf course and I recall wondering how they were going to play the 1st hole, which climbed the ski slope and seemed to my untrained eyes to be about 1800 yards long.  

ahhh...the memories just keep flowing back like all that flotsam and jetsam...

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

When the "new" Mt Airy unveils you need to be the first one to tee off for the good ole times !!!

The 1st at Mt. Airy had had more car wrecks before the round was even two shots long. I can remember more carts lined up to play than you would see cars coming out of a GM assembly plant in Michigan.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mike

I spent a college summer at Tamiment where I was in charge of the canoes on the lake. I had much more luxurious quarters.

I played the RTJ classic course there and am planning to return as soon as the heat leaves the area.

Steve

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike

I spent a college summer at Tamiment where I was in charge of the canoes on the lake. I had much more luxurious quarters.

Steve,

Yeah, but you canoe guys got all the hot girls!  


Matt,

Thanks, but if the new hole still plays in the same uphill direction, I think I might have to retire instead to one of those heart-shaped tubs.  

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Better yet -- we can send you over to that other design marvel -- the CC of the Poconos. I'm sure you're itchin to head back that direction.

What's comical is that when some people venture across the pond to play some of the most unique links courses -- there should be some sort of recognition for the Poconos because arguable the area has some of the most inane layouts one can ever encounter.

P.S. To the group -- when Purdy designed Mt. Airy it was supposed to be a piggy back on the best holes in America stemming from the Dan Jenkins original article in SI. The final hole at Mt. Airy is supposed to be a recreation (pardon the major league stretch) of the finale at PB.

[Craig_Rokke]

Mike very poignantly captured M A! My wife worked at a couple of those "schmaltzy" places during high school.
Nothing like having people answer the door for room service, sans clothing she told me.  The first hole may be the worst I've ever seen. Last time I played, my group went off 45 minutes late, as group after group slogged up that hill.
I certainly don't think anyone here thinks Pocono golf is on the verge of big things.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

The real design marvel is the Orange & Silver nines at Mountain Manor G&CC.  

The old Blue and Yellow nines were done by the father, Russell Scott Jr, in 1946 and are sort of fun in an old-style sort of way and lay in the valley at the foot of the lodge.

Unfortunately, they also owned the land on the mountain behind the Lodge.  

The Orange was built back there by son Russell III in 1973 and if that wasn't quite enough, he followed with the Silver nine as an encore in 1989.

It includes such things as a 750 yard par six that's a 90 degree dogleg, but that's one of the more conventional holes.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

To be fair you need to play the famed Bear Brook in Fredon Township (NJ) -- they have a 700-yard hole too -- in the event anyone missed Newark Liberty Airport.

Childs played the course with me and it also include a dog-leg right hole where the McMansion is on the inside portion of the turn -- sort of like The Road Hole where you drive over the rail sheds. Don't believe the owner of this $1 million palace figured golfers would be using his house as a target.

Don't know if it rates with the best in the Poconos but it's one of the few courses where the homes actually were cemented in stone before the golf was accounted for.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike:

To be fair you need to play the famed Bear Brook in Fredon Township (NJ) -- they have a 700-yard hole too -- in the event anyone missed Newark Liberty Airport.

Childs played the course with me and it also include a dog-leg right hole where the McMansion is on the inside portion of the turn -- sort of like The Road Hole where you drive over the rail sheds. Don't believe the owner of this $1 million palace figured golfers would be using his house as a target.

Don't know if it rates with the best in the Poconos but it's one of the few courses where the homes actually were cemented in stone before the golf was accounted for.

Matt,

Oh, I've already had the distinct pleasure of playing Bear Brook.   It certainly is very similar to some of the architectural wonders we're discussing.