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Patrick_Mucci

Could it succeed ?
« on: July 23, 2006, 07:30:27 AM »
Tom Doak mentioned that Mike Keiser stated that the retail golfer doesn't want to find himself up against a brick sod walled bunker.

I have to profess a love of the bunker styles seen at this years British Open at Hoylake.

If Hoylake was a public golf course on the coast of MA, RI, CT, NY or NJ could it succeed ?

If not, why not ?

TEPaul

Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2006, 07:54:19 AM »
Pat:

This kind of thing is a very good question.

First of all, this particular British Open just might be the best example in my memory of the vast differences between GB links courses and American courses and links style golf and American style golf. The extreme brown of Hoylake is one factor (I've never seen a Open course that brown) and certainly the vastly different playability of the "short cut" surrounds and potentially "architectural" penality of their revetted bunkering is another stark difference.

That combination of firm and fast (brown) and architecturally penal bunkering with the ball's far greater likelihood of getting in them and increased unpredicatility of getting out of them and Tiger Woods's being in the lead should serve up a huge American audience and maybe the best opportunity yet for Americans to see and appreciate (or not) the vast differences in the two styles of golf and architecture.

I think Tom Rinaldi's beautiful piece on Thursday's of the interest of luck and chance in GB golf compared to American golf will also help to highlight the vast differences and distinctions.

I hope it helps to popularize over here many of those interesting aspects of GB and links style golf, but obviously there will be more converts but some who oppose it even more having seen the extremes of Hoylake and its playability.

It should make much clearer the differences of the ground game in links and American golf, "architectural" penality of bunkering, and the roll of luck in golf.

If Americans don't accept it in say public golf it'll only be for the same old reasons---eg their interest in a type of golf that is of the more immaculate and green variety and the type of game that is more aerial, more predictable and more "fair".

There may be one other vast difference that Americans will notice at Hoylake and propably have an opinion on about GB and links golf and that is the apparent extreme unpredictability of the look and consistency of the grass one has to putt across. That last aspect I'd doubt many Americans would embrace or frankly would ever have to.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2006, 07:54:37 AM »

If Hoylake was a public golf course on the coast of MA, RI, CT, NY or NJ could it succeed ?

If not, why not ?

Patrick,

I do believe that location and price drive 80%+ of people's golf decisions. Given equal choices, I think people would choose green grass and more "traditional" bunkering. They will always try something once, but in a competitive market Hoylake West would be a tough sell for the repeat player which is where you make your money.

If you ever play Old Kinderhook, which is private, it is Paulian like maintenance meld light green and brown, and my guess is that this is part of the reason they have not sold out despite being a very nice course.

wsmorrison

Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2006, 08:06:03 AM »
I love the look of the revetted bunkers, but the shapes seem very simple at Hoylake--round, oval or pinched in at the middle.  Some of the bunkers at TOC have a bit more complexity in shape but I guess not much more.  Some answers before it makes sense to consider if they'd work elsewhere....Does having sod walls limit the complexity of the hazard outline?  I would think they require less daily/weekly maintenance but need to be overhauled every year or couple of years.  How often do they need to be redone?  Some of Flynn's drawings called for bunkers with revetted faces.  Could he have meant something else by that in 1920s America or does it refer to the same style we see at Hoylake and elsewhere today?  I'd like to know what Flynn was indicating on these plans that called for revetting.  I think on a links course or some seaside courses they'd look pretty neat.  It could very well look out of place anywhere else.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2006, 08:48:47 AM »
I think TE Paul has hit the nail on the head aswith if it didn't suceed it why. There is a large number of golfers of all standards and nationalities with the perverse idea that golf should be FAIR. What they don't seem to realise is that how good you hit the ball or score that makes you a good player but how you deal with adversity that makes you a good golfer. Links and traditional golf courses are more about golfing and love of the sport than playing.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2006, 12:07:17 PM »
Pat, the revetted bunkers, the fairness issue of having them built to gather a wide surrounds of balls bounding near them, the issue of often needing to play away from the line of play to get out of them, and the look of them in their proper environment of links firm, sandy, hard ground will not catch on for the retail golfer in the U.S., at this time.  But, I speculate that it could catch on with the botique, descerning golfer, who will/can pay private club money, at places like you mention on either coast or population center.  

With the niche small group afficianados like here on GCA.com, I believe there is a demonstrated small private connoissuers market.  The only way that translates to retail is by emmulation.  The same way the Augusta syndrome creeps into the thinking of the retail golfer, or even the desired ideal conditioning goal of the private green committee (in many cases) the issue has to be one of trend setting.   The retail golfer has to be conditioned and trained to think a certain way.

This also applies to the trend and conventional wisdom created by the trend setters to the archies.  They only respond to the market.  Architects would design revetted bunkers if they were accepted by the retail golfer, and requested by the developers.  But, that ain't going to happen without some serious changes in the conventional wisdom, and what the retail public is stimulated into thinking is desirable.  If they were slowly introduced to the vaguaries and uncertainties of the links bounces, the placement and gathering design of revetted bunkers as being part of the game as a mentality to embrace, then slowly there could be a shift in retail golfer perceptions.  But not at this time... I don't think.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2006, 12:54:27 PM »
Given equal choices, I think people would choose green grass and more "traditional" bunkering. They will always try something once, but in a competitive market Hoylake West would be a tough sell for the repeat player which is where you make your money.
I guess we have a different definition of traditional.  

Isn't the bunkering at Hoylake, St. Andrews, etc. traditional and the bunkering in the US non-traditional?  St. Andrews's tradition is what 400 years older than what exists in America, is it not?

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2006, 01:45:59 PM »
Pat, the revetted bunkers, the fairness issue of having them built to gather a wide surrounds of balls bounding near them, the issue of often needing to play away from the line of play to get out of them, and the look of them in their proper environment of links firm, sandy, hard ground will not catch on for the retail golfer in the U.S., at this time.  

I have to agree with Mr. Daley, it's not just the bunkers, but the surrounds, the lack of rough that allows the balls to collect into the bunkers that must be included in the scenario and no, I don't think the US golfer will buy it.

"... and I liked the guy ..."

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2006, 02:01:34 PM »
Mike, Pat's question is a matter of "could" it succeed.  

I wonder what the future weather and water resources questions will bring.  Could underlying condtions force a seachange in what ther retail golfer accepts, even if only forced to by hardening conditions and dwindling resources like abundant water?  While Pat points to the acceptance of revetted bunkers, it seems to me that they have to go hand and hand with dry, hardened turf conditons.  I don't know if the revetted bunkers could work in more wet, clayey, and parkland settings no matter what.  I'd like to hear what experienced golf course constructors might say about where they are more likely to make design sense.  Do supers think that such revetted bunkers would add to expenses and translate to higher fees or would costs balance out to no harm to higher retail golfer fees with the whole package of less watering, less fert and chem inputs?

Where the trend setting issue may be something that leads to a willing embrace; "could" resources issues force things, ultimately leading to acceptance and success by retail golfers learning to enjoy such?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2006, 02:34:24 PM »
Mike B:  Lots of designers are designing a lot of short grass around the greens lately, and the American golfer has been fine with that.

Patrick:  Interesting question.  Maybe someday we will get to find out the answer.  Working in Scotland has been great for us because we are getting to practice building that sort of bunker ... I'm really amazed at how quickly the boys over there have picked up the style.  But we are doing it, knowing that it will be understood and appreciated in Scotland.  

In America it would be a different story.  It's only going to work if you do it exceedingly well.  We would have to be at the top of our game in the shaping department.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2006, 04:41:29 PM »
Mike B:  Lots of designers are designing a lot of short grass around the greens lately, and the American golfer has been fine with that.


Tom - if I may ask, what designers are doing this and how many courses are being changed or built with these features?

-mb

"... and I liked the guy ..."

Steve_Lemmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2006, 04:47:42 PM »
Anyone have a guess as to what Hoylake (or a similar UK/Irish course) maintenance budget is vs. a comparable US course (Winged Foot/Shinnecock/Bandon?).  If maintenance costs were substantially less, greens fees could be correspondingly lowered.  That could bring some appreciation of the brownish color.  

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2006, 05:19:42 PM »
Gentlemen -

Isn't there a British Open copycat/tribute imitation links-like course in Las Vegas? Has anyone played it? Does it provide a reasonable facsimile of links golf? How has the paying public responded to the  course?  

(Sorry if this course has been discussed here before, but I do not recall any threads about it over the past couple of years.)

DT

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2006, 05:35:07 PM »
Given equal choices, I think people would choose green grass and more "traditional" bunkering. They will always try something once, but in a competitive market Hoylake West would be a tough sell for the repeat player which is where you make your money.
I guess we have a different definition of traditional.  

Isn't the bunkering at Hoylake, St. Andrews, etc. traditional and the bunkering in the US non-traditional?  St. Andrews's tradition is what 400 years older than what exists in America, is it not?

Wayne,

You and I are in agreement. My quotes around traditional was meant from the perspective that 95+% of golfers probably view todays Augusta and Winged Foot bunkers as traditional. Pat's question was in reference to the public golfer in the Northeast thus I offered an opinion based on what I believe is their perspective.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2006, 05:41:42 PM »
In America it would be a different story.  It's only going to work if you do it exceedingly well.  We would have to be at the top of our game in the shaping department.

Why's that, Tom?

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2006, 05:47:38 PM »
Isn't there a British Open copycat/tribute imitation links-like course in Las Vegas? Has anyone played it? Does it provide a reasonable facsimile of links golf? How has the paying public responded to the  course?  

David,

Is Las Vegas in the United States? ;)



I have played Royal Links and I enjoyed it. It is an only in Vegas type of place, and the course is much better than the clubhouse. I think the pricing was $225-250, so that model would not work in the Northeast where I have never seen a green fee north of $150.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2006, 06:26:53 PM »
I think gathering bunkers could succeed in the US on the right course.  Didn't I see photos of Steel course which had these bunkers somewhere out East?  Maybe Nantucket?


Sean,

Somewhere I have posted pics of Carnegie Abbey in Rhode Island and The Vineyard Club on Martha's Vineyard by Steel, but both are private new expensive high end courses.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 06:29:05 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2006, 07:52:57 PM »
Gentlemen -
Isn't there a British Open copycat/tribute imitation links-like course in Las Vegas? Has anyone played it? Does it provide a reasonable facsimile of links golf? How has the paying public responded to the  course?  
(Sorry if this course has been discussed here before, but I do not recall any threads about it over the past couple of years.)
DT

The Heathland course at the Legends complex in the Myrtle Beach area was designed like a true links course and I believe it was the most popular of the three courses they had when I played there.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Steve Pieracci

Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2006, 09:27:23 PM »
This is why it won't succeed.  Someone:
1) Commissioned it
2) Designed it
3) Built it
and
4) then play it!  





Seriously:
Most of the comments I heard this weekend regarding Hoylake focused on the yellow/brown fairways and greens.  But I also heard comments about the difficulty of the bunkers and their ability to play around them or out of them.  So, I would conclude that said bunkering would not succeed in the USA at this time.  

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2006, 09:31:30 PM »
The Holylake bunkering would definitely succeed in America, you underestaimate
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2006, 10:19:32 PM »
Sometimes I think that the golfclubatlas.com discussion board participants are completely out of touch with public golf.

I am not sure about New York and New Jersey, but do you know how many full-length, public, oceanside golf courses there are in New England? I can only think of the Samoset Resort and Farm Neck.

The public would go crazy for a course like Royal Liverpool, if there were several holes on the ocean.

P.S. - I just looked at Royal Liverpool on trusty Google Earth (it has green stripes) and if our hypothetical course was as hard by the ocean as the original, it would be a runaway blockbuster.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 11:10:39 PM by Michael Moore »
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Could it succeed ?
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2006, 11:02:16 PM »
I think TE Paul has hit the nail on the head aswith if it didn't suceed it why. There is a large number of golfers of all standards and nationalities with the perverse idea that golf should be FAIR. What they don't seem to realise is that how good you hit the ball or score that makes you a good player but how you deal with adversity that makes you a good golfer. Links and traditional golf courses are more about golfing and love of the sport than playing.

Indeed, how we deal with luck, to my eye, is a fine yardstick for the measure of the man. How many professional golfers who whine about the fairness of this bounce or this pin position forget to mention the pulled putt that they misread that went in?? Or the tree that kicked them back in bounds.
I had three consecutive birdies last year, I've never had more, two were lucky.
It takes a particular illness to only see one side of the equation.
And Pat, not to threadjack, or whatever they call it. I'd pay for Hoylake west.. if I lived nearby.. but not many of my pals would.

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