[Tommy_Naccarato]

With the golf course being this fast, it lent itself to just amazing creativity....--Tiger Woods

For the naysayers, I could play on those conditions everyday and die a happy man. Dry, arid, brown and green and orange and yellow, even white!, FIRM & FAST!

I can only think that the need to carry 6 to 7 clubs max would be not only lighter on the shoulder, but it would make one a better, more creative and instinctive ball striker.  

Thoughts?

[Tom Huckaby]

I too could play all my golf in those conditions and be happy - IF the course was conducive to such.  Hoylake obviously was - Rustic Canyon is - but so many courses with bunkers or water fronting greens would not be - and they are the majority where I live, that's for sure - so I travel for these conditions, enjoy them when I can.

But I can also enjoy the game when it's soft and slow.  

As for carrying less sticks, hell yes it's fun.  But we've discussed it before - it gets old after awhile, especially when one keeps losing money to those who don't HAVE to get so "creative."

TH

[Glenn Spencer]

It looked like a lot of fun and I thought it was a great tournament. Everything in moderation  is always a good way to live and I think it applies to golf courses, except for certain architects, of course. I could see getting to miss some of my American favorites after a while, but it would take some time.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
You don't think having to hold back, actually having to lay-up on some of those hazards because of fear of running it into them isn't a good thing? I would think it would play more into a persons mind. It would also change what type of club you would be hitting into the green wouldnt it?

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy - that would get old quickly.  Man does not live by match play and laying up alone.  It's also fun to make birdies.

I speak from experience... you of all people should know... this is how it works out with hickories a lot of the time.  So it's very fun for a change.  But for ALL of one's golf?  Well.....

TH

[Noel Freeman]

As good as Hoylake looked for the firm and fast motif, I must say having played about 100 rounds of links golf over the years the best firm and fast of all is still down on the Sandbelt.  Hoylake was burnt out to my eye and while balls ran, it was almost like hitting it on the beach at times b/c the grass was so dead the sand underneath almost acted like a catcher's mitt.  When the grass is barely alive and the ground firm underneath is when you see the 70 or 80 yard rolls.. The fastest course I ever saw in the UK was Rye which has no irrigation.  It was beyond yellow, almost a white yellow colour during a hot spell when I visited in June 2001.  There was no where to tell where the ball would stop unless you hit into the wind..

That said, in Nov 2002 at the Sandbelt I regularly saw balls bound 50-70 yards.  The fastest of all places of the the venues I played was Metropolitan.  I swear I saw Jim Reilly hit a 200 yard 8 iron with no wind that went 140 yards on a slightly low traj and just kept rolling and rolling.. I lost a ton of balls hitting drivers there, I should have just hit 5 woods or followed the TW strategy.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

See, I think it would be the spirit of the challenge. the idea of whether you can make it or not.

Architecturally, it might mean that after years of mindless and uncreative use of water--more of its over-use is put to death.

R-E-M-O-D-E-L!!!!!

[Tom Huckaby]

Well Tommy, it's a nice thought.

I just don't see the huge majority of courses here in America at which screaming firm and fast WON'T work being remodeled to accomodate such.  But dare to dream.... We sure as hell do need more Rustics and Wild Horses and less Trump Nationals...

[TEPaul]

Tom Huckaby:

Most seem to constantly miss the over-all philosophy of my Maintennce Meld, and what it's intended to accomplish course to course. It is not a "one size fits all" philosophy like the American maintenance philosophy of the last half century where ALL courses in the States were supposed to be maintained in one homogenized way---eg generally green and lush and softish. My IMM is definitely specific to the type of course one has, and that can call for differing maintenance practices to highlight differing design intents.

On many classic and links type courses it is a combination of firm and fast "through the green" and green surfaces that are imaginatively fast enough and firm to the point of only a "light dent" to a really well struck lofted aerial shot from the fairway. The latter is to promote something of a lack of reliabilty to aerial shots all day long from particularly good players who are just looking to stick the ball.

On the other hand, with some modern primarily aerial design intent course and architecture that (the IMM) needs to be adjusted to provide for firm and fast "through the green" but green surfaces that are fast but soft enough to promote the total reliability of well executed aerial shots---eg to allow the ball to check and suck back on the greens, if necessary and if intended. Don't forget, that component has always been part of most of the modern playability on modern aerial game designed courses.

But not so, or not only so, on the classic ones. Generally, they're designed inherently differently and call for other types of options and shot choices. The one thing I never want to see on a classic course looking for the IMM is to see the ball hit the green and stop dead or suck back----obviously weather permitting, that is.

[Tom Huckaby]

TEP - I understand that very well - in fact that's what I'm trying to tell Tommy.  The maintenance meld works both ways - at some places it's firm and fast, at others it's not.

So please address the instruction to the Emperor.

 

[Tommy_Naccarato]

O.K. Here's another question, a course like say, Rye or Hoylake, what seven (7) clubs are you going to use?

Mine would be the following (Out of my current bag)

Ping G5 3 Wood
Ping Eye 2 5 Wood (the wood club I would probably use most)
Ping Eye 2 4 Iron
Ping Eye 2 6 Iron
Ping Eye 2 8 Iron
Callaway Hickory Stick Hi-Lob (strictly for sand and the occasional high-short carry over a greenside bunker)
Ping Anser 5 Custom Putter

(I would omit the use of my R7 driver, even though I could use the distance)

[TEPaul]

OK;

To:

The Emperor Himself

From:

TEPaul

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy - you're going with modern sticks?  Why half-ass this?  If you're gonna use 7 clubs at a fine classic firm and fast links like that, why not go all the way?

My choices:

Brassie (the one I have, perhaps a better one I'd buy from Randy Jensen in Omaha)

Stewart mid-iron
Stewart jigger
Stewart niblick
Stewart mashie-niblick
Stewart niblick

Hickory putter

I bet I could play those courses pretty decently with that set....  The stewarts are damn well better than modern irons...

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, H,
No need to. I know what the TE Maintenance meld implies, this is why I think those courses that don't subscribe to the proper philosphy of bringing back the perfect features as such aren't what I call interesting architecture. This doesn't mean all water holes, it means holes where it is just simply over-used and prescribes to only one do or die strategy. It's as John Kavanaugh would say where Golf Architecture "Jumped the shark...

While Tom would allow it to fit in his Big World Theory, he's just being nice. I know exactly what kind of architecture he aspires to!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, Hickory aside. Modern day, conventional clubs. That is unless you have gone to hickory full-time.

[Tom Huckaby]

Well Tommy, that's cool - the world does need purists/zealots without a doubt.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom, Hickory aside. Modern day, conventional clubs. That is unless you have gone to hickory full-time.

Not as much fun.  But OK, it's your question.  All out of my bag or garage:

Driver - biggest damn TI head I can find, most forgiveness.  I am not Tiger and it still goes 275 at most for me.  I'd have to play far more like DiMarco.

Hogan Hybrid 19 degree - can hit off tees, out of rough, wonder club.

5iron
7ron
9iron
LW

Putter

I know I could break 80 if I played well with this set.  Hell I used damn near this set for 90% of my golf not all that long ago.

TH

[TaylorA]

It'd probably be OK in areas where sand is the predominant soil underfoot. However, here in red clay country, it would be nearly impossible to hit off the brutal hardpan. Not to mention both a danger to life and the environment when it did rain turning the red clay into an absolute mess.

[Tim Pitner]

Isn't the fun of firm and fast conditions that they give you choices?  If you take clubs out of your bag, you're limiting those choices.  It may force you to hit certain types of shots and make you a better player, but I don't see why it would be any more fun.  I like the full complement of 14.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - that's a great question.

One of the things that gets overlooked also is that a large part of the time, screaming firm and fast means you are certainly hitting shots that are DIFFERENT, but in terms of choices, they're actually even more limited for all but the very, very skilled.

By that I mean, make the ground concrete and who can confidently hit a wedge off of such tightness anyway?  So the one and only shot becomes a putter - or maybe some other iron punched along the ground - from anywhere near the green so long as nothing is in the way.  And damn near always on these links, nothing is in the way... or if it is, hell the wedge off the tight lie is so damn hard to do sans skulling or chunking, one just putts AROUND the trouble anyway!

There is no "one size fits all" in this game.  And that to me is part of its greatness.

TH

[Tim Pitner]

One of the things that gets overlooked also is that a large part of the time, screaming firm and fast means you are certainly hitting shots that are DIFFERENT, but in terms of choices, they're actually even more limited for all but the very, very skilled.

By that I mean, make the ground concrete and who can confidently hit a wedge off of such tightness anyway?  So the one and only shot becomes a putter - or maybe some other iron punched along the ground - from anywhere near the green so long as nothing is in the way.  And damn near always on these links, nothing is in the way... or if it is, hell the wedge off the tight lie is so damn hard to do sans skulling or chunking, one just putts AROUND the trouble anyway!

Tom, good point, you're quite right.  I guess I'd make a distinction between (1) Hoylake before Thursday, balls run like a stabbed rat (courtesty of Sean Arble) firm and fast and conditions, and (2) conditions that are firmer and faster than most U.S. courses, but you can still take something resembling a divot (like, say, at the Bandon courses or the Irish links that I've played).  In the latter category, the full range of options--air, ground, something in between--are present.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - I understand that all too well - remember I've played a LOT of links golf - well, a lot for an American still living in the USA anyway...

But my point remains - on ground that is REALLY firm and fast - and that seems to be what Tommy is advocating - you just do have to have a LOT of skill (or a lot of practice on it) to hit wedge shots over things with any degree of confidence.  Thus the putter or runner around things becomes the shot choice damn near all the time no matter what.

So Tim has it right - make conditions a LITTLE softer/grassier (ie Bandon as he references) and choices abound.  But make them concrete/fast, and it's putter and putter only anywhere near the green unless you have absolutely no choice but try and flop one over something.  And even then, the result expectations ought not to be very high.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

You didn't see putters from off the green?  What tournament were you watching?  I saw lots.  And this from the best players in the world...

Hey, that's not the point anyway - remember I qualified this based on skill level.  If you are great, options remain.  But for the 99% of us who aren't great, putter remains the choice damn near every time.  And remember also I'm only talking when it's concrete firm and very fast.

I can't wait till we meet - I'm gonna plunk a ball down on concrete hard dirt and make you lob it.  A beer for me for every chunk or skull, one for you for every correct hit.  Goodale can be the judge.  I expect to get very drunk, on your tab.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Sorry man - my point was not about Tiger Woods, no matter what the thread title says.  Oh, I'm happy to buy you enough pints to keep you happy - it might help you actually hit decent lobs off the concrete also - but my point remains correct.

For mortal golfers, extreme firm and fast conditions limits shot choices far more than it increases them.  He will hit shots he's likely not used to - it will just the be same one time after time after time - a putter or some other low runner.

Disagree?

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean - forgive me, this is nothing against you personally.  From what I've read hear you sound like a normal golfer like the vast majority of us, and if that's the case, well... as your caddie I am advising putter when we get close to the green in those concrete fast conditions.

Note I sure as hell don't hit any wedges myself unless FORCED to.

So I like that club range idea!

BTW, I have zero axe to grind re Steel - watching on TV, the greens he did looked fine to me.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()