[Sean_A]

I think some on this board have been very hard on Steel's work at Hoylake - especially the changes at #17 (Open #1).  The green needed to be shifted for safety reasons.  The same road which made the hole interesting also happens to carry a fair amount of pedestrian and automobile traffic as I am sure was witnessed by many this weekend.  So far as I can tell most of the criticism is merely because of change.  Not many are actually looking at the 17th and judging the hole on its merits.  I think the 17th is a very good hole.  I also like the work Steel did on the 18th.  The 3rd green is also very good.  Wouldn't it be refreshing if we applauded Steel for his excellent work under trying circumstances? 

Ciao

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Well said, Sean.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Sean,

His work at Enniscrone clearly fixed up a course where Eddie Hackett did not have the money to build in the dunes. I have never heard anyone say they like the old Enniscrone better.

His work at The Vineyard Club was very unique to the US, and they had a tough environmental group on The Vineyard to work with.

Again with restictions from the monks and environmentalist to work around, Carnegie Abbey may be the perfect modern compliment to Newport CC. I will try to post some pictures later, but it has great vistas, rolling terrain, gathering bunkers and low key subtle features that this board raves about when C&C or Doak do them. Greens that any GCAer would love.

I have never understood why Steel is not loved here at least a little.

[Steve Lapper]

Never understood this lack of endorsement for Steel's work.

  Having played frequently at the Vineyard Club and once at Carnegie Abbey, Steel's work has never been less than enlightening and special. His use of gathering and sod-faced bunkers (and few, if any of them are shaped in circular or oval) have been excellent. They are strategically situated and like Hoylake, usually mean instant bogey. His shapers have rendered terrific green complexes that test the player's creativity and short game. At these two clubs, the ground game option is well preserved and usually presented on a majority of holes.
 Aren't most of these design principles exactly what the GCA crowd laudes? I know a few other traveling GCA'ers have seen some of this work. Wonder what their thoughts are?

[TEPaul]

It can be found in the archives of PVGC that George Crump wanted to essentially mimic the very hard opening hole of Hoylake with his first hole. At this point, I'm a bit confused which hole was the first hole of Hoylake in 1910. Was it the first hole used in this Open or another of the holes?

(Also, when visiting Hoylake in 1910, Crump had a match with the great John Ball, losing to Ball 2 and 1).

[T_MacWood]

The first at Hoylake was the 3rd hole at the Open...a dogleg right with the cop and OB to the right.

[TEPaul]

Thanks, that's what it sounded like to me too but they were throwing around so many holes that seemed to be out of original sequence it was hard to be sure.

The only other hole at PVGC that I am aware Crump wanted to mimic another hole was his 12th somewhat mimicing something about Myopia's 16th.

BTW, I did post on here (on some other thread when you asked) what I believe to be the hole by hole detailed contributions of Colt and Crump and others (I think I got through about the first eleven before having to leave) but no one seemed to comment or be interested so I took the post off, as I now do have permission to write the architectural creation and evolution story of the course and who exactly did what and when.

[T_MacWood]

TE
I was interested but I was waiting for you to complete it before commenting. You should start a separate thread or better yet post it as an essay under 'My Opinion'.

[Dan Moore]

The rap on the Steel greens had to do with the fact they have more internal contour and were out of character with the greens on the rest of the course.  However it seemed like the newer Colt greens in the dunes also had a degree of contour to them.  In any event I think they added a degree of difficulty and interest to those holes that was sometimes lacking once the players arrived on the otherwise mostly flattish greens.  

Steel has an excellent book on Classic UK courses.  

[Noel Freeman]

If you are going to praise the Donald who I had the good fortune to meet 5 years ago while he was working on his putting at Pulborough, then you must sing the praises of Tom MacKenzie who I believe does the heavy lifting as I think Mr. Steel is semi retired..

BTW, Russell Talley and I walked around the Bracken course at Woodhall Spa and while I wouldnt pass up a round on the Hotchin course for it, if it was by itself, I definitely would want to play it and perhaps if I had two days there, I definitely would.  If I recall Russell and I thought the greens were the best part of that layout.

[Paul_Turner]

I thougt Steel's greens were interesting and played well but the 17th (1st) was much more cunning as it was.

The safety argument doesn't really wash.

[Brian_Ewen]

Well since no one has mentioned it yet ...

The Eden  

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

Balls trundled below that fence at a snail's pace.  People could easily have been kept off the nearer pavement.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

The old 17th would have been a 5-iron/lob wedge to today's players.  It seriously cramped spectator movement, given that the majority of off-site car parkers were dropped off by park'n'ride buses on Stanley Road.  Yes, there is something romantic about someone of my inability boasting of having putted out-of-bounds on this particular hole (I haven't).  But these chaps would never have threatened to kill a passing motorist (of which there were none, as the road was closed).  Royal Liverpool is a very old club, but it is not an old course in the sense that it has had lots of alterations over the years, all of which, presumably, were thought to have been improvements.  If this year's improvements included some rather more contoured greens than previously, perhaps the trend might be continued for the next time Hoylake hosts the Open - and let's hope it does.

[TEPaul]

"You should start a separate thread or better yet post it as an essay under 'My Opinion'."

Tom MacWood:

I'd be happy to do that and I will but only with PVGC's permission. After-all much of the material comes from their archives. I'm going to do it but I'll give it to them. After that they can decide what they want to do with it or want me to do with it.

[Ryan Crago]

Balls trundled below that fence at a snail's pace.  People could easily have been kept off the nearer pavement.

isn't redesigning for the sake of liability the club's call?  

[Ryan Crago]

sean,

i was actually agreeing with you, if cheekily...    

[Mike_Sweeney]

For Patrick, Carnegie Abbey #15 green a reachable par 5

[Paul_Turner]

Ryan and Sean

I don't think the 17th was redesigned for liability reasons.

It was done, as Mark states, for added length and spectator movement.  And probably the R&A didn't have the nerve to include another hole with OB so close

But for me the hole had lasted 80 years, without any law suits, was a great 17th and deserved to be left alone.   Thank goodness , The Old Course isn't shifting greens to stretch its shorter par 4s or accomodate spectators (and it's the worst course in the world for spectators!).

Ah well it's all water under the bridge now, the new hole is still pretty good, it just isn't special.

[Brian_Ewen]

Donald Steel on the 17th , Pre-Open :

""Its the same drive as it has always been , although we did slightly rebunker , adding a new trap on the corner to catch a few brave drives . We also moved the green back and left as it would have been dangerous for spectators . The Putting surface is slightly raised and we tried to endorse the linksy feel by cutting the fringe areas very closely to allow the ball to be scuttled up to the hole .""

[Paul_Turner]

For those who don't know,  here's the old 17th (1st as the pros played in The British Open).  Hard up against the road.  Usually mostly into the prevailing wind and I think slightly across too...pushing onto the OOB road.  Not all that short at 423 yds.

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