Is there a generational impediment to firm fast fairways ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

At a course I'm familiar with, a discussion occured amongst older, long time members, regarding the British Open at Hoylake, the condition of the golf course, and the condition of the golf course we were playing.

One of the golfers asked, "why can't we get our fairways firm and fast ?  Why can't we get them yellowish-brownish-green ?

Some responded that the course we were playing used to be that way prior to the introduction of an AUTOMATED irrigation system.

Prior to that installation, an irrigation system existed, but, it was operated manually, probably on a needs basis.

Most of these golfers, in their 60's and 70's like the concept of roll or run.  Most of them recollected how it used to be.
Most of them grew up with browned out roughs and off color fairways in the summer, and most of them grew up prior to color TV broadcasts of PGA Tour events every week.

The discussion finally turned to the ultimate question.

"How do we get the fairways and greens back to those conditions ?"

In light of the age of the leadership at most clubs and the leadership about to take the helm for the next 10-20 years, I don't see how there can be a return to brown-yellow-green, fast and firm fairways and greens.

I think today's conditions are generationally driven, and I don't see that trend reversing itself anytime soon.

Sure, there are exceptions, but, in the large majority of private courses, and public ones too, lush, soft, green conditions, narrowed fairways, accompanied by flower beds and ornamental plantings seem to be the future of golf.

Are these conditions generationally driven ?

Can the status quo or trend be reversed ?

Or, do most people in control of golf courses view the British Open as a quaint anomaly ?
One they wouldn't want their course to mimic ?

[Ulrich Mayring]

Most of us probably don't play on a links course, but on a parkland track with clay soil, trees and, yes, flower beds. These courses have a different character and brownish fairways aren't part of that, much as artificial lakes or trees aren't an asset on links courses.

Ulrich

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
   I would say that less than 1% of golfers (I'm guessing, so don't ask for proof ) , would want their course to look or play like Hoylake. Most golfers are annoyed if their ball even sniffs the green, but doesn't end up on it. I can only imagine how they would react to seeing their ball roll on the green and then get shouldered off for a shot a little off line.
    It probably is generational, with this generation consumed by greenspeeds, and the previous one with wall to wall green grass. I have no idea what the next generation has in mind, but I doubt it will be good for the game. I hope I'm wrong.

[Craig Sweet]

Anyone who blames "automated irrigation" for the over greening of golf courses is just plain wrong....an automated system can be programed to water as much or as little as YOU desire.

I don't know whether it's a "generational" issue so much as it's an educational issue.  People just don't understand that in hot weather the grass they play on is suppose to turn brown....the degree to which it turns brown is up to them...if they are members of a club they have more of a say than John Q. Public who plays the local muni...

If a course is designed to play firm and fast it should be maintained that way....but not all courses are designed to play firm and fast....I have seen designs where hazards (bunkers/ponds/streams are designed to be protected by rough...rough to slow the ball from going into them....if the course is modified for firm and fast and the rough is mowed, those hazards are more in play....

[Mike Policano]

Pat, how's it going?  I was just going to type what Greg said.  I think it is an educational issue.  If all one is exposed to is green courses lined by trees and colored by planted flowers, then this is what one thinks golf is about.  This is how I thought as a beginning golfer.  It was my first trip to Ireland that showed me the light.  Ah, this is golf.  

I have suggested that the super and pro at my home club actually hold semi-annual sessions on golf club architecture so that the members can be exposed to the history, theory and roots of golf.

Without the education, and clearly few people take the time to read on their own, it is too easy for golfers to scoff at the brown conditions and call it ugly and unappealing.

Last week in England, I was 80 yards from the green and I asked the caddie for an 8 iron on the first hole.  He looked at me very oddly.  I proceeded to run the ball up on to the middle of the green.  He turned and said, "that was a very un-American shot".

[Peter Galea]

Times change. Technology advances. We now have the ability with modern irrigation systems to provide fast and firm conditions, and have turf with some color....green(ish). Re: Salinetti's conditionng of NGLA last summer when I played it, was superb (perhaps my finest golf experience). Yes, I can imagine some courses without irrigation depending on their location, becoming brown and dusty during the dry season. I think that often times condition is dependent on traffic, specifically cart traffic. Turfgrass, at least in my little corner of the world, requires water and fertilizer to thrive and recover from the stresses we put on it. Golf course maintenance in America anyway, leans heavily toward consistancy. Greens and fairways are expected to react the same from 1 thru 18. Most modern players "need" a little cushion of turf to get the ball airborne, especially older higher handicappers. Pinching it off 1/8th inch of turf laid over "concrete" to a tight pin poistion in not in the repitoire of most players.
Feel free to disagree, this morning I had my head handed to me and was shown a ground game that was mostly aerial.

[Craig Sweet]

We put over 600,000 gal. of water on my course every night, yet the conditions are firm and fast...we have brown grass, yellow grass...and green grass...the green speed is around 10....from what the golfers tell me, they love the conditions....

[Wayne_Kozun]

Most of these golfers, in their 60's and 70's like the concept of roll or run.  Most of them recollected how it used to be.
Most of them grew up with browned out roughs and off color fairways in the summer, and most of them grew up prior to color TV broadcasts of PGA Tour events every week.

Don't forget about self-interest as it would probably help their scores relative to younger players as they don't hit the ball as high so they would gain more relative distance than the 30 year old.  

In other words, they can't get it up like they used to and hard and fast fairways is their golf version of Viagra.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ulrich,

Brown, or yellow-brown-green fairways have been part of parkland golf courses for decades if not a century.

Automated sprinkler systems have greened those fairways, not mother nature.

Ed Getka,

Looking like Hoylake would be an extreme, but, yellowish-brownish-greenish fairways are ideal for playability.

I think the concept of "fairness" is contrary to Hoylake type conditions, and that too may be an impediment.

Pete Galea,

Having the ability to produce those conditions and having the "will" to produce those conditions are two different things.

It seems that everybody has the ability in terms of technology, but, do they have the directive or the freedom to produce those conditions ?

Mike Policano,

I'm fine.
How are you.

Is it an educational process or an indoctrinational process ?

The educational process will take ages.
Indoctrinization takes a lot less time.

Craig Sweet,

The golf course I was referencing is about 80 years old and was designed to be played fast and firm, as were most older golf courses.

There are only two greens with fronting hazards and one's a tiny creek fronting a short par 5 and the other is a pond on a relatively short par 3 from an elevated tee.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Of all of my clients over the years, I can think of three who objected the most to the idea of firm and fast fairways.  Two were older gentlemen who did not like the sound of "hard" ground where taking a divot might hurt; one of them got just that, and he's still unhappy about it.  

The third client was about 50 and not a great golfer.  He shared your view that the younger people to whom he was trying to sell memberships would want the course to be lush and green, and so it is to this day ... partly because they still haven't sold all the memberships!

Don't blame my generation.  Americans have been trying to ruin golf for much longer than that.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I think your generation, and the one immediately below have been most influenced by televised golf, and each successive generation is further removed from the roots of golf, both in the U.S. and in the U.K.

The context of my thread had more to do with "memberships" than enteprenuers/developers.

Even my generation has been bombarded by televised golf over the last 36 years that promotes a product alien to that which you and I  and the GCA.com crowd crave.

[Gary_Mahanay]

Tom Doak,

Do the tif-sport bermuda fairways at The Rawls Course in Lubbock, Texas play firm and fast?  Seems like the perfect place but maybe not the perfect grass for firm and fast.  

Gary

[Tom_Doak]

Gary:

The Rawls is one of the firmest courses anywhere, and it's pretty fast on the downwind holes, too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

When someone hires you, aren't they preprogramed to getting a predicted product when it comes to playing conditions ?

I wouldn't think that a developer thinks you're going to create lakes, fountains, waterfalls, etc., etc..

The evolution of your body of work seems to suggest that they're going to get an architect with predetermined and strong beliefs about how the game should be played, or, am I missing something ?

[TEPaul]

"In light of the age of the leadership at most clubs and the leadership about to take the helm for the next 10-20 years, I don't see how there can be a return to brown-yellow-green, fast and firm fairways and greens.

I think today's conditions are generationally driven, and I don't see that trend reversing itself anytime soon.

Sure, there are exceptions, but, in the large majority of private courses, and public ones too, lush, soft, green conditions, narrowed fairways, accompanied by flower beds and ornamental plantings seem to be the future of golf.

Are these conditions generationally driven ?

Can the status quo or trend be reversed ?"

Patrick:

It not only can be reversed, it is being reversed. Almost everywhere I go these days (to talk about this kind of thing) these clubs are into this idea and they are most certainly both studying it and attempting to put it into effect, if they haven't to some degree already. The list is getting longer every day as more clubs become impressed by what other clubs who've done it ahead of them are accomplishing.

The Creek is a good example and their golf and green chairman are of this new generation.

But when a club decides to transition to this type of playability and look they do need to do their homework about what-all the "transition" will require on their particular course. It's not rocket science but it's definitely not as simple as just suddenly turning the water off or down significantly.

It does take a couple of years or three to transition agronomy over from years of over irrigation and chemical dependencies and the types of grass, the soil makeup, the amount of play VS maintenance necessities like tyning, aeriating, veriticutting and a leaner regime need to be factored in. Sometimes the decision to reseed greens or other areas needs to be considered to get something on there that adapts to dryness better (poa greens are something of a problem (if a club does not have a large man-power crew and budget) as poa is essentially a "wet" grass).

There's a lot of understanding and a number of components that needs to go into transitioning to firmer and faster but I see so many clubs doing it now and others getting interested in doing it.

As usual, Patrick, you are about 2-3 years behind me in most everything you say and discuss on here, particularly this subject. Call it firmer and faster, call it browning out some or a lighter shade of green, call it the Ideal Maintenance Meld or call it whatever you want to call it, but it is happening all over the place and its exciting because essentially the "playability" is pretty much of a win/win situation amongst the levels of players (with only a very few remaining little niggly obstacles of overcome).

What you probably need to do, Pat, is come up to the head of the classroom and start to pay more attention and listen better, instead of sitting in the back and carrying on a bunch of useless yaking and arguing, as per usual.  

In other words, start to pay better attention and you may find you don't really need to start some of these threads because GOLFCLUBATLAS's archives are replete with them.

What is interesting to discuss, though, are the various components and the degree of them that go into all this in both the context of maintenance practices and how that relates to this playability on various golf courses.

[TEPaul]

Furthermore, Patrick, what I'm talking about here is not exactly links style golf--- but it is firmer and faster playing conditons on parkland, and other types and styles of American golf courses, most of which are of the general "inland" variety. But most all the old ones were this way at one time and they most certainly can be again.

[ForkaB]

Tom

If you had really fast and firm fairways (a la Hoylake or just about any British links right now) many US courses would be unplayable.  It would be impossible to keep a drive out of the creek on the 5th fairway at Merion or on the proper fairway at any of a number of holes at Olympic.  Fast and firm on heavily sloped sites just does not compute.  The ideal maintenance for most great US parkland courses is fastish and firmish.  IMO, of course.

[TEPaul]

Rich:

What you seem to fail to understand is that the "IMM" is maintenance practices that are tailor made for particular types and styles of architecture and courses. The basic idea is to highlight all the available options of various types of courses (which can be and will be inherently different) and to bring those various options into a form of balance or equilibrium.

The old philosophies of attempting to use some "one size fits all" maintenance practices for particularly American courses needs to be thrown in the trash and the new IMM philosophy of analyzing any course to determine the necessary maintenance practices to highlight its particular design intent needs to be adopted.

I most certainly have never maintained that the IMM for links style golf should be transposed to an American inland golf course even of the classic variety.

Perhaps Pat Mucci is of that opinion, and that's precisely why I said he is just so far behind me and definitely needs to start paying closer attention.  

[ForkaB]

Tommy

You forget those good old days when I was trying to coax out of you exactly the thoughts you expressed above, because I knew them then and you were just learning.  From time to time, you stray, and that is why I have to give you a little tweak to get you back on the straight and narrow.  However, if you really want to talk fast and firm, Grasshopper, you really need to spend more time in GBI.  You just can't get it sitting in Philadelphia or thinking back to the good old days with the good old boys at Talledega.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You can't be serious !

The Creek is very unique and certainly shouldn't be held out as an example with respect to what's going on with member clubs around the U.S.

First, it's a CBM/SR creation that sits on a special piece of property right on Long Island sound.

Second, The Creek has an ongoing rivalry of sorts with Piping Rock.  It was so at the inception and it continues today.
Piping Rock's outstanding superintendent has been an adovocate of fast & firm conditions for many years.

Third,  The Creek has a history of being frugal

Fourth,  The Creek is conscious of and has retained its historical roots, its traditions.

To hold out The Creek as a typical example of what's happening at member golf courses today is disengenuous.

For every Creek, there are ten courses going in the other direction.

And, it's only recently, probably through the efforts of George Holland, that the club is heading in this direction.

You need to escape from the confines of Happydale Farms and get out to everyday member clubs to see how they're being maintained.

Unless you're looking through rose colored glasses, you'll see lush green conditions as the rule, not the exception.

[TEPaul]

"Tommy
You forget those good old days when I was trying to coax out of you exactly the thoughts you expressed above, because I knew them then and you were just learning.  From time to time, you stray, and that is why I have to give you a little tweak to get you back on the straight and narrow.  However, if you really want to talk fast and firm, Grasshopper, you really need to spend more time in GBI.  You just can't get it sitting in Philadelphia or thinking back to the good old days with the good old boys at Talledega."

Rich:

Believe me, you definitely did not teach me my maintenance meld philosophy or a firm and fast philosophy and either did links golf.

I learned it right here in America and I distinctly remember the place and even the time when it all came together. Although I don't recall ever talking to him about it specifically if anyone was responsible I'd have to say it was probably Karl Olsen and what he did at NGLA.

NGLA is in America, isn't it grasshopper?  

[TEPaul]

"The Creek is very unique and certainly shouldn't be held out as an example with respect to what's going on with member clubs around the U.S."



Patrick:

I'm not holding the Creek out as some unique example. I really just can't understand you or where you're coming from. I could create a list of probably over a hundred courses that have now given up on the old over-irrigated maintenance philosophy and are dedicatedly heading down the road to firm and fast, the IMM and the ground game or are searching for advice and ways to do that. And this is a list of courses that I'm personally aware of. Obviously there has to be many more than that.

You act like some guy who's standing on a street corner screaming the fire hydrant is broken when everyone can see it's beginning to gush all over the place.

It's happening Pal, and the rate it's happening is increasing every day. Even USGA agronomists are getting into the philosophy for God's sake.

The things you are saying on this thread may've been true ten years ago but not now. If you're aware of clubs that are continuing to go in the other direction, perhaps like your own, then maybe that means you don't really know how to broach this stuff to the membership properly, or how to treat them. I've been concerned about that with you for years now.

Get me in there to talk with them---I can almost guarantee I can get them to listen. Apparently you just don't know how to talk to them properly. I keep telling you that most any membership generally doesn't react that well to someone whose very first inclination is just to BLAME them for something first. That hardly ever inspires a receptive audience.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Your overly simplistic and unrealistic approach doesn't account for clubs where the budget may be stretched or the superintendent in the defensive mode.  And, it doesn't account for those clubs where those in charge are advocates of the conditions they see on TV year after year.
You choose to ignore the culture of golf in America today.

U.S. golf courses don't just want lush, green, aerial conditions, they crave and pursue them.

As to my methods of getting things done, they were highly successful when I was involved.

As of about three years ago, I no longer care.
 
Let the inmates, the uninformed and the unqualified run the asylum.  

Let them produce an inferior product, one that's contrary to the architectural intent.  It makes me appreciate courses and superintendents that "get it right" all the more, even though they're in the great minority.

You see golf moving in one direction, I see it moving in another, and the direction I see is dictated by those with little or no connection to golf, its history, its architecture and its traditions.

Is Shinnecock restoring their fairway widths ?
Will Merion return their fairway widths to their pre-Open configuration or further narrow them for the next Open ?
Will Baltusrol continue to narrow the field of play by moving their bunkers to match their newly narrowed fairways ?
Will PV continue to allow benign neglect to impact the lines of play, will they continue to lengthen the golf course as they have recently ?

And, what impact will the movement in the above direction have on local clubs.

NGLA is a rarity, a wonderful throwback to an age when golf was played as it was meant to be, brought about by the genius of an unusual personality and wonderful curators.   And while there are some terrific new golf courses, such as Sand Hills, the courses at Bandon, Sebonack and Hidden Creek and others, they're in the great minority.

Visit the courses of the GAP and the MGA and tell me how many have yellowish-brownish-greenish fairways and greens today.

When their number exceeds the number of emerald green golf courses, then, and only then will I think that golf in America is moving in the right direction.

[Dan Herrmann]

I blame it on The Masters (an event I love)

When color TV first showed ANGC, people all over the world asked why their course wasn't as green, lush, and perfectly manicured.  They fired superintendants that couldn't achieve such perfection - and who could without Augusta's budget?

[Craig Sweet]

Pat Mucci....you asked:

"Tom Doak,

When someone hires you, aren't they preprogramed to getting a predicted product when it comes to playing conditions ?

I wouldn't think that a developer thinks you're going to create lakes, fountains, waterfalls, etc., etc.."

What do lakes, fountains, waterfalls, etc.,etc have to do with playing conditions?