Golf's Sistine Chapel

[Bob_Huntley]

Trees at the seventeeth to go?

Yes.

Slapper, I envy you the ability to hit a three iron over the trees  at the 18th. No matter what you I think, I feel that it is a lousy hole.

[Lou_Duran]

If CPC is the best 17 hole golf course in the world is Pebble Beach the best 13 to 15 hole course?  I understand Bob Huntley's remarks, and as I recall, he doesn't have much love for #17 either, but I don't agree with the criticisms.  (Sorry, Bob.  I hope that this doesn't exile me from my favorite spot in the world.)

#18 is uncomfortable from the tee on a course that generally gives you numerous options.  It is not an ideal hole, but on any other course, it would not be so maligned.  From just my one time on the course, the hole is in keeping with the Doctor's philosophy of allowing an indifferent shot to be overcomed by an extraordinary recovery.  I tried to hit a high "power" fade that turned out more like a wounded-bird cut that drifted far right.  There I had three options, chose the more risky blind shot over the trees, hit it very well, but got the ball caught-up in a tree overhanging the right side of the green complex.  In ten minutes I went through several emotions- from extreme disappointment on the tee shot, hope for a chance at a Seve recovery, exhiliration on what I thought was a fantastic second shot, and deep depression when I got to the green and the ball was no where to be found.  A great up and down from near the tree where the ball was lodged gave me only minor relief.  So, for me at least, a hole that can create such excitement and mood change in a very short period of time can't be bad.  I should be damned to play 18 (the hole and the course) at CPC every day for eternity.

Our host at another unforgettable course, Sand Hills, once remarked that playing his course just one time was cruel, like making love to the most wonderful woman (like Tommy's  Ms. Devenue) and having only one chance with her.  I am very envious of slapper, and maybe my opinions of 18 would differ if I played it four times over two days.  I agree with Sandy Tatum's characterization of CPC, and I doubt that there is a better club course in the world.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Bob is correct about the tee shot as was I and others. I did like Matt's observation and comparison to other notable short par 4 finishers. The green compex is great on 18 and Adam noted the view as you look back. It is a moment to be thankful for the 4 hours you just enjoyed. This course is such a pleasure, that a discussion of this length on 18, cheapens the overall experience of reflecting on the course.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

My comments were not made to cheapen the experience at CP. Far from it. The course is utterly superb -- but for 17 holes! I don't hate the 18th as some might imply -- but for hole to be just OK when you've just experienced what's come before it is a big time downer. And, my opinion is not influenced by the so-called tightness that exists off the tee.

Guys, I know many people want to gloss over 18 and kind of poo-poo those of us who see it a bit differently.

Look, CP isn't the only first rate course with a downer for a closer. I also don't see the 18th at Bethpage Black being any great shakes after you go through the gauntlet of holes starting with #15. The Rees solution, I believe, is at best a makeshift solution. Ditto the finishing hole at Plainfield CC (NJ) in also being a downer.

I don't have enough superlatives to describe CP -- slapper captured the feelings of nearly all with his opening salvo.

But, the 18th comes across like me singing in the shower. It sounds good to me, but I should not quit my day job. When you've experienced such a seamless layout that ebbs and flows briiliantly ands then you end up with #18 you have to admit it's a downer. Realize I didn't say hate -- just a downer.

Again, just to amplify what I said initially -- I'm not suggesting some bombs away length par-4, but when you look at the imagination and craftiness in putting forward such wonderful short par-4's like the 8th and 9th and then you stack up the 18th with them -- you have to say what happened here? What was the good Doctor thinking?

If CP's 18th could be hidden elsewhere in the round I might view it differently. But, the 18th is the closing hole -- it's the one that should tie the experience all together. When you walk up the 18th at CP you think of what happened BEFORE you got to that hole -- you don't link the finishing hole in any manner, shape or form with the totality of the others and I believe too many people are coming up with fanciful excuses to let the mediocre nature of the hole slide by. The one person who said it best was Jimmy D and I believe he got it right -- then and now.

[GPazin]

Matt -

Could you expand a little more on why you like Olympic's closer but not Cypress'? As I mentioned, I haven't played either, so I'm curious to know why one seems to work & the other doesn't. Is it the tree issue, is it the greensites, or is 18 Cypress simply a letdown from the buildup?

[Poster's note: Please don't think I'm criticising or harping or bashing or anything - I'm just looking for a little help with an honest question.]

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Matt
I'll tell what the Good Doctor was thinking, he enjoyed throwing curve balls at guys like you. Unorthodox holes that stimulated thought, contraversy and discusion. Holes like #17 at Crystal Downs or the old 7th at ANGC. He loved that. When asked what people thought of CP he was told everyone loved it, no criticism - he asked where the hell did I go wrong. If he is looking down right now (or up), he is laughing his ass off everytime someone complains about that hole.  

I don't believe there is such a thing as a perfect 18th. That idea may be an American invention - due to medal play. Many times in match play you never see the 18th. And in match play the enviting hole is as appealing as the difficult hole, both competitiors have to play it. The most important aspect is choice. In MacKenzie's mind the model 18th might be #18 at St.Andrews - thought provoking, unorthodox and contraversial.

[NAF]

I've only played CP once and found the 18th to be a fine golf hole.  Tough tee shot, tough approach, good green.  True, it is the most indifferent hole on the course and is anti-climatic but I will say this.. Have a look at the last picture in Geoff Shackelford's book of Dr. Mac looking down the fairway on #18 towards the Pacific.  He is standing/gazing right by the flagstick and it is a scene of tranquility and splendor.  I highlight this picture because that is exactly how I felt after the round.. Essentially, full of wonder, like a kid who wants to keep playing..

Maybe the 18th just puts you back into perspective of the journey you just took and brings you back to reality...

But I've only been to CP once..maybe after a lot of time to play there, one's opinion differs..